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julieandken
742 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2011 : 8:10:39 PM
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The way that I understand (and use) the term, Heidi, is that fawn grey is an interspersing of white in dark fawn fiber instead of brown or maroon. With silvers, obviously it's the eumelanin black and more recently grey to black fibers salt and peppered with white that makes the silver grey.
I think that 2 things have happened over the 7 years that we've been showing that have made the resolution less clear, for those who follow grey:
One; is that we are bringing finer and finer fiber. When a juvie or yearling came into the ring, back in the day, fine might have been 22 micron and very good separation of micron between primary and secondary might have been 12 microns. So with mostly dark fibers at 34 microns over mostly white of 22, I wouldn't even need my glasses to call it a grey, especially since...
Two; the show animal invariably had a dramatic tuxedo, with big bold spots, often inches in diameter, and often in both brown and black.
In addition, the fiber was less uniform and organized and the dark and light fibers would not be nearly as well matched in the staple.
There were still fawn rose greys...I have one. They just didn't raise eyebrows because they had the spots and tuxedos.
We're now seeing alpacas with much finer, better aligned and organized fleeces where the micron of the dark and light are almost the same micron...something that was almost unheard of just a few years ago.
I have a breeding silver grey male whose in skin biopsy at 2 years shows:
primary fiber diameter 22.3 mic SD 3.2
secondary " " 13.7 mic SD 2.5
If most of the secondaries are white and the primaries black, he's still easily identifiable as silver because of the co-mingling of colors. In fact some would look at some of those ultrafine dark fibers and swear that they are actually "true silver". They might be...my eyes just aren't that good even with glasses.
Turn it around to the rose case. At those microns, there is no way that I could easily look at the fleece and separate the colors as the stark black and white greys.
Separate the sampled fibers on a dark background and the white and "dark fawn" fibers are easier to segregate, and much easier with a magnifying glass.
For reasons that I can't understand, the rules commitee decided that an admixture of white and dark fawn would no longer constitute grey, but is light fawn. Ostensibly, this is because those of those greys weren't grey at all but light fawn or vice versa.
That's what my blog is about on our website, along with pictures of the guilty suspect.
To make things easier for me to be sure of (Peacemaker's) phenoytpe, he has 2 rose grey parents (mom solid), has 5 dime sized dark brown spots, only 4 of which are in his blanket, so that he is not an apaloosa. He also has brown muzzle surround by a white micro tuxedo (my thoughts on tuxedos are in my blog).
The judges that I have spoken to after showing who didn't place him in grey did not dispute that he was genotypically grey. They were bound to follow the opinion of the show rules commitee. One judge told me that "they don't have a class for him". It's too bad...they used to.
FWIW,
Ken
Julie and Ken Rosenfeld, MD
Renaissance Ridge Alpacas
Mount Aukum, CA
www.renaissanceridgealpacas.com
530-620-7934
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=12721 |
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Heidi Christensen
4211 Posts |
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highpeaksalpacas
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2011 : 4:03:43 PM
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Ok... had my cria today from my two almost spotless silver gray parents... a spotless, beautiful silver gray girl!! EXACTLY what I ordered!!
Debbie Potter
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp
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APacaFunFarm
1183 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2011 : 1:02:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by highpeaksalpacas
Ok... had my cria today from my two almost spotless silver gray parents... a spotless, beautiful silver gray girl!! EXACTLY what I ordered!!
Debbie Potter
Debbie,
This is what happens more often than not with tuxedo grays, and is the "reverse" of what happens with roan x roan (dominant vs recessive pattern of inheritance).
Given your thinking about the genetics of "gray" Ken, care to comment?
Neil
Neil Padgett
A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
mpcpneilp@gmail.com
www.apacafunfarm.com |
Edited by - APacaFunFarm on 08/01/2011 1:03:52 PM |
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julieandken
742 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2011 : 4:23:53 PM
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Neil,
It will be interesting to see what happens if Debbie were able to re-breed this girl to an almost spotless silver male, and then repeat the process for a few generations...if she is so inclined.
(Are you Debbie??).
If we can breed the tuxedo and spots out, without compromising fiber quality (my more important concern), we might be able to establish that there is a single roan gene (Nancy Rehboks M series) with spotting, and distribution (tuxedo) modifiers.
I will fell a lot more, or perhaps less, confident saying that in 3 more years.
Regards,
Ken
Julie and Ken Rosenfeld, MD
Renaissance Ridge Alpacas
Mount Aukum, CA
www.renaissanceridgealpacas.com
530-620-7934
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=12721 |
Edited by - julieandken on 08/01/2011 4:25:26 PM |
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highpeaksalpacas
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2011 : 4:42:54 PM
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This cria is spotless... and the dam has one black spot..smaller than a dime.... dad is either spotless or has one small spot not in blanket..he's at the farm that co-owns him now so I cannot go out and look..
Anyway..are you asking me to rebreed these two..or breed her to another spotless male...??
This cria is spotless..but definitely has tuxedo...although, unlike her dam and sire..her back legs arew actually gray-fibered where you may expect white...
The sire Caleb who can be seen on my AN website www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp if you are interested..and the dam is there as well.. her name is Persnickety.
Debbie Potter
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp
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highpeaksalpacas
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2011 : 4:53:08 PM
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Cria is in that site now too if you want to see what the two "spotless tuxes" made.
High Peaks Amazing Grayce is her name... Let me know what you want me to do re: breeding I'm up for an experiment!
Debbie Potter
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp
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danimac
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2011 : 9:59:25 PM
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This cria is spotless
I would be interested in hearing from you in 6-8 months to see if that's still the case. I've had 3 animals that developed spots somewhere between 6 months and a year (about the time all the follicles were fully functional and growing).
Congrats on a great cria!
Dani
Dani McKenzie
Longbottom Meadows
Roy, WA
360-400-0348
http://www.longbottommeadows.com |
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Wanapaca
35 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2011 : 10:32:59 PM
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This is the perfect topic for my grey girl born last week. I’m not sure if she’s modern or tuxedo.
She is a dark rose grey with lots of white (or light grey) fibers on the back of her ears, more than the brown and evenly dispersed. Slightly lighter on the front of her neck with a definite grey cast to it, small white spot on her chin and black toes with very dark legs that have a few evenly dispersed white fibers. She is a bit lighter in the places where vicuna patterned animals are. That color is a grey taupe. No other spots that I can see, either light or dark.
Baby Blue’s mom is a 4 year old bay black with increasing white in her blanket and neck each year, mostly secondaries, but not enough to be considered grey. No white spots at all. She is dark fawn in her armpits, groin and bib. She is from a light fawn import accoyo male and a true black female (until she was about 2) that has greyed out considerably in her primaries so that she has a white halo. That girl’s mom is a harlequin and her sire a tuxedo silver grey. Lots more tux grey in her background but as I understand it that doesn’t make a difference to what her grand daughter is.
Blue’s sire is a tux light silver grey.
Would this be a poorly expressed tux grey? Do modern greys have any white on them? Can a contaminated appearing animal (her mom and grandmother) be poorly expressed grey or roan or is it something else entirely?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Pat Yager
Wanapaca Alpacas
Monroe, Wa
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APacaFunFarm
1183 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 12:10:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by julieandken
Neil,
It will be interesting to see what happens if Debbie were able to re-breed this girl to an almost spotless silver male, and then repeat the process for a few generations...if she is so inclined.
(Are you Debbie??).
If we can breed the tuxedo and spots out, without compromising fiber quality (my more important concern), we might be able to establish that there is a single roan gene (Nancy Rehboks M series) with spotting, and distribution (tuxedo) modifiers.
I will fell a lot more, or perhaps less, confident saying that in 3 more years.
Regards,
Ken
Ken,
What I was referring to was the differing patterns of inheritance between roan and tuxedo gray.
Tuxedo appear to be dominant. Breed a full patterned tuxedo gray to solid and you get tuxedo gray more than 50% of the time.
Bred a roan to solid and you rarely get roan. At Alpacas de la Patagonia, Hugo told me he got 2/50 roans breeding Neruda to solid. Tim Lavan related that Greybeard did a bit better, with about 15% roan cria out of solid dams.
Seems like a clear difference in inheritance pattern, don't you think?
Neil
Neil Padgett
A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
mpcpneilp@gmail.com
www.apacafunfarm.com |
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julieandken
742 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 06:10:57 AM
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Hi Neil,
It sure does sound like a different pattern of inheritance, but it's not what we're seeing. I can't explain the differences except perhaps that I would want to see the color checks done again after 2 years of age.
Breeding a tux, gives you clear markers with both the tux pattern and spots. Most observers will not even have to look at the fiber to identify the phenotype, even at 1 month of age.
Absent the tux and spots, there are many that fall into "indefinite classes" because of less defined expression, and a latent appearance of light fibers as they mature.
I don't know how many of those 50 cria Hugo still has, but I would be interested in their color at maturity and whether they "greyed" out.
I can't reconcile the apparent discrepencies. Why do you suppose that tux to tux breedings don't give 100% tuxes?
Ken
Julie and Ken Rosenfeld, MD
Renaissance Ridge Alpacas
Mount Aukum, CA
www.renaissanceridgealpacas.com
530-620-7934
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=12721 |
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APacaFunFarm
1183 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 08:43:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by julieandken
Why do you suppose that tux to tux breedings don't give 100% tuxes?
Ken
Good question, but then why do you think there hasn't been a solid color bred to itself that gives 100% like cria?
Neil
Neil Padgett
A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
mpcpneilp@gmail.com
www.apacafunfarm.com |
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julieandken
742 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 09:50:45 AM
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Same answer..."good question".
Perhaps, since the roan M series and phaemelanin A and eumelanin B series are interactive,there is an order of dominance A > B > M. We know from breeding solids, that A trumps B.
There would also be bias in reporting tux roans and spotted roans because of reliance on those other 2 physical characteristics (incomplete centripetal melanocyte migration =tux, and dark spots).
Put another way, there are likely some outcomes where the M series roan gene is suppressed by a dominant A (brown/fawn) or B (black) gene, but still lingers in the genotype of a phenotypic "solid".
I would love to know what the breeding outcome was in the 48 of 50 solids that Neruda produced to see if there was a re-emergence of grey in the breeding outcome.
In this case expressed grey is not so much poor expression as is is suppression by more dominant alleles. Same thing except that in a "push/pull" scenario there is a different emphasis.
It may also be that the tux distribution allele also renders the M series more assertive.
Interesting that there are breeders who have claimed that their solid "pulls grey", because he is out of 2 grey parents...maybe there is something to that.
Our first GnR offspring, Gun's A'Blazin' is an uncontested solid dark fawn male (GnR is tux rose grey), who now has 2 offspring (so far). Bred to solid rose grey he has produced a minitux (black and white face) solid medium rose grey (mom is Snowmass Blue Mist). Bred to minitux rose grey Patagonia's Sakura, he produced a poorly expressed (so far, at only 1 month old) solid minitux rose grey also with black and white facial markings who from a distance looks exactly like her sister, but with less representation of white fibers in her blanket.
Clearly, I need at least 1 more generation to make any assertions with a serious degree of confidence. I am, however, confident that the current tux dominant/ solid grey recessive theory needs a re-thinking and is far too simplistic an explanation of grey genotypes and has been "boxed into" somewhat inadequate "show color definitions".
I suspect that the A series fawn/brown alleles are far more effective at suppressing roan than the B black series, quite possibly because dilution genes come into play and render more "contaminated fawns", that the show system seems to be currently having so much trouble with right now. Most of those alpacas have been bred back to solids. Creating greys out of them, to produce grey won't necessarily prove that there is a separate recessive solid grey gene...it might also be a case of increasing expressivity of a dominant gene.
We're not looking to increase the size of our herd. 30 or so breeding females is all thet we can handle. But...might it not be an idea to see if some of those "contaminated" lights and darks can do a better job working in a roan program, than being bred in perpetuity for the "dreaded" (i.e for show ring purposes) contaminated offspring?
I can't think of too many people that I would like to have this discussion with in the years to come, Neil. If nothing else, you sure keep me on my toes and keep me honest.
Regards,
Ken
PS It's been incredibly busy here and I'm diddling around on the computer avoiding real farm activities. I hope to get some pictures up on my next blog to show the cria and moms out of the Gun's A'Blazin' breeding outcomes that I mentioned (we need a new camera too) and will let you know when they are up.
Julie and Ken Rosenfeld, MD
Renaissance Ridge Alpacas
Mount Aukum, CA
www.renaissanceridgealpacas.com
530-620-7934
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=12721 |
Edited by - julieandken on 08/02/2011 09:55:17 AM |
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Christiane
2549 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 10:15:06 AM
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Interesting topics, although, I must admit, I have a lot to learn ab out the scientific aspect of genetics. I just had a cria born three weeks ago that is out of a medium fawn and Neruda's brother, Greybeard. I was hoping for a rose grey or grey, but she looks, at least right now, like she will be a light or medium fawn like her dam. Sometimes she looks like she is a tad grey, but at this stage, I am just glad it is a female and that she is a very healthy one. Her fiber looks delicious and my shearer told me to spin it up because it was long enough already. Tons of crimp in that girl too. I have yet to put a picture of her on my website, but plan on doing that soon. Her Dam is GSAF Miss Deerfield.
Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-3739 |
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APacaFunFarm
1183 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 12:18:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by julieandken
I am, however, confident that the current tux dominant/ solid grey recessive theory needs a re-thinking and is far too simplistic an explanation of grey genotypes and has been "boxed into" somewhat inadequate "show color definitions".
I couldn't agree more.
As an aside I request you put pictures up on GrayAlpacaCentral. I'm delinquent on my last year's outcomes and will do the same.
I have a female that is a near carbon copy of GNR's pattern (which would be partially expressed tux rose gray in my current thinking). FYI, she is the cria used as an example of partially expressed tuxedo gray in the "About Gray" article on GrayAlpacaCentral, and like GNR has solid and tux gray parents. Her first cria (out of full pattern tux gray) hit the ground this Spring. That cria is full pattern tux gray, with spots.
It would perhaps be useful to compare like phenotype from different genealogy (GNR, my female, and others) as we tease out an answer.
Continued best regards,
Neil
Neil Padgett
A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
mpcpneilp@gmail.com
www.apacafunfarm.com |
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JimR
1046 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 1:46:55 PM
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I love the spots on grays, makes them unique, unusual..breeding spotless grays is b-o-r-i-n-g. Knowing what every cria will look like before it's born, b-o-r-i-n-g. I think that's why I like breeding for grays/appys rather than fawn or white. Nothing to look forward to other than will it be a boy or girl. JMO
Susan Rempe
Four Corners Alpacas
Bloomfield NM
River11524@msn.com
www.AlpacaNation.com/fourcorners.asp
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julieandken
742 Posts |
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JimR
1046 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2011 : 10:15:01 AM
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I don't consider appys or grays with spots multi. I do know that there is a lot of interest in appys, they usually always sell.
But right now Ken nothing much is selling. Maybe because the summer has been so hot, I am not sure, but others I have spoken too all have said the summer has been very slow.
Is the reason for no spots a spinners issue? Or just because someone decided to breed spots out of tux grays to see if it can be done?
I hope it doesn't include rose grays because they have many varied shades of fiber, which turns out beautiful spun, that is usually the best selling color I have in yard. so I am not understanding why no spots is important. Isn't gray considered a cottage fiber color as opposed to white which can be mass produced and there is no varition in color.
Susan Rempe
Four Corners Alpacas
Bloomfield NM
River11524@msn.com
www.AlpacaNation.com/fourcorners.asp
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julieandken
742 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2011 : 10:45:01 AM
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I agree that the economy is hurting all sales now, but the prices bid and received for multis has always been low relative to solids. Traditional greys have always, including now, held their value because of "eye appeal"...although I don't know why they are valued higher than multis, since their appeal have always been there in "eye appeal" to hand spinners in particular.
I suspect that it is because the price of alpaca is more written into the animals breeding value than fiber value.
I also suspect that there will one day be several scales of commercial production, and that it will not just be white. There are magnificent fawn and brown animals capable of bringing undyed fiber to a large scale and they are a large part of the American herd. Blacks and greys are not too far behind. If one were able to make solid greys, both rose and silver and black, I would expect them to have the at least equal value, as breeding stock, as those fawns and browns.
I love traditional greys and have lots of them. I think that the issue, particularly for new breeders who one day expects to sell animals as breeding stock, is "what is my animal worth". Obviously, it's only as much as someone is willing to pay. It will be determined by fiber production needs at that time and is speculative.
Right now, there is a reason, at least in my mind, to hope that we can have a commercial grey. To me that's not boring, but quite exciting.
Ken
Kenneth M Rosenfeld MD
Mt Aukum, Ca
Renaissance Ridge Alpacas
www.renaissanceridgealpacas.com
Julie and Ken Rosenfeld, MD
Renaissance Ridge Alpacas
Mount Aukum, CA
www.renaissanceridgealpacas.com
530-620-7934
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=12721 |
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JimR
1046 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2011 : 11:12:56 AM
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I agree Ken commercial gray would be exciting, but I think all gray is exciting too, more than any other breeding I do, or have done in the past, I look forward to my gray breeding's, and next year my appy/harlequin breeding's (hoping they took)
I think if you asked most breeders, they aren't looking to sell tons of alpacas a year, just enough to make room so they can breed others, and cover expenses at least.
I see so many alpacas I would love to buy, the prices are just super, and they would really be good additions to my herd, but I am out of room.
That's why I wish there was a national(or private) fiber herd that could at least take some of the boys, even on a lottery basis to help free up room, which might get the herds "unlocked" so we could add and alpaca or two to our herds when we see something we really can't live without.
Just wishful thinking because I know people would start buying if they had room.
The only way to accomplish that at this point is to get new buyers interested. At this point even the tax incentive thing is looking good to me as a selling point. JMO of course
Susan Rempe
Four Corners Alpacas
Bloomfield NM
River11524@msn.com
www.AlpacaNation.com/fourcorners.asp
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Poorly expressed gray (again)
