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 Dosage amount - Injectable Ivomec
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Judith

3995 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  1:06:17 PM  Show Profile  Send Judith a Yahoo! Message
Hi Ryan -- I thought that ARF was doing something on m-worm. Or maybe it was Morris Animal Foundation or OSU. But I know somebody's working on a vaccine. Wish they'd find one fast, though!

Judith Korff
LadySong Farm Alpacas, Fleece & Flowers
Randolph, NY 14772
(716) 499-0383
www.alpacanation.com/ladysong.asp
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mythic

888 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  2:00:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit mythic's Homepage
To the best of my knowledge, ARF partially funded a project at Cornell University to look at a better vaccination for P. Tenuis (M-worm). It was $4250 out of $44979 for the first year, and the $4250 was donated specifically for this project by Stachowski, Mizrahie and Coburn/Hunt. There was an article about this project in the Winter 2003 Alpacas Magazine. I haven't seen anything else about it.

ARF funded a meningeal worm study in 2005-2006, but that was on limiting neurological damage as a result of M-worm infection.

Yes, there is currently a parasite related study through Morris Animal Foundation, but it's studying only the prevalence of resistant worms (resistant to our dewormers), but is not specific to M-worm.

The current ARF (and Morris Animal Foundation, supported by ARF) projects can be found at http://www.alpacaresearchfoundation.org/pages/research_fp.html

Completed projects can be found at:
http://www.alpacaresearchfoundation.org/pages/
research_compl.html, which has some very interesting and worthwhile reading.

Ryan

Ryan & Joanna Maas
Mythic Alpacas
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/
03_viewfarm.asp?name=11126
www.mythicalpacas.com
Goode, VA
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Mary Jane

1150 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  3:46:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Mary Jane's Homepage
Don't hold out too much hope for a vaccine against M Worm. If they do manage to develop one, it would be a major medical breakthrough as there are no other existing vaccines against any type of parasites whether they are intestinal, blood borne, or other, human or animal. The drugs we currently use kill the parasite in an already infected host, not prevent the infection from occurring in the first place. If they do succeed, it would open the door for research into helping erradicate many devastating third world diseases...
Mary Jane

Land of Legends Alpacas
2653 Swans Road
Newark, OH 43055
(740)345-2199
www.alpacanation.com/landoflegends.asp
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mythic

888 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  4:56:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit mythic's Homepage
I'm not holding out for a vaccine, the implications of which I understand. I'm simply looking for a study that will tell us what size dose of which dewormer(s) at what frequency is sufficient for prevention of M-worm (assuming you don't have ivermectin-resistant worms!).

Ryan

Ryan & Joanna Maas
Mythic Alpacas
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/
03_viewfarm.asp?name=11126
www.mythicalpacas.com
Goode, VA
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jmathiason

140 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  06:30:24 AM  Show Profile
Good morning everyone,
I thought I would chime in on this topic. I would caution folks not to blindly follow their Vets recommendations but to use their own judgement, especially if your only available Vet is not a Camelid expert.

I just had my Vet (who is not a Camelid expert) do fecal floats on the herd and he suggested that I could cease worming for the winter. The girls' were worm free but he found 2 whip worm eggs in the boys'.

I live in Maryland and I have a stream fed pond next to the pasture. I have deer ALL over the place -- definitely m.worm country. Consequently I respectfully listened to what he had to say and then told him I would continue to administer Dectomax every 4 weeks at 1cc per 70 lbs year round. I will also continue to do fecals and based on the results I will worm according to what is found; as I recall Dectomax does not address all types of worms.

That is my story and I'm sticking with it (grin)!


jmathiason
Alpaca Road LLC
Ridgely MD
www.alpacanation.com/alpacaroad.asp
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Mary Jane

1150 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  07:53:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit Mary Jane's Homepage
Hi Ryan,
I wasn't actually suggesting you not give avermectin but wait for a vaccine. Sorry if my post came across that way. I was more replying to Judith's post than yours. I apologize if it seemed that way.
Because alpacas are a deadend host for M worm, (the parasite cannot reproduce from an infected alpaca) M worm cannot become resistant to avermectins. The way resistance works is a few hardy organisms (parasites, bacteria, etc.) survive the host being treated with a medication chosen to kill them. These surviving organisms have a genetic predispostion to be able to 'resist' being killed by that medication. The organism reproduces and spreads to another host, taking with it the resistance genes. The organism multiplies in the new host, giving each of its offspring the genes for the ability to survive the medication. The second host is treated with the same medication and again the hardiest organisms survive to be passed on. Some of the reasons the organism can survive include: stopping the medication before all organisms are killed (not taking ALL the antibiotics the doctor prescribed), not giving the correct dosage, administering the medication in an ineffective manner (giving it IM when it is designed to be given SQ or at the wrong time), and not giving the correct medication (giving penicillin when streptomycin is needed). Because the M worm cannnot reproduce from an infected/treated alpaca, it cannot carry resistance genes to the next generation of parasites. It either dies from the medication or dies with the alpaca.
I believe that when people speak of 'resistant worms', they are referring to intestinal parasites that have become resistant to ivermectin or other worming medications.
I wish there were a definitive study done to settle the dosage/administration route question. Perhaps someone with the administrative knowledge necessary could set up a fund to take donations toward that end. When there are sufficient funds, they could be offered to an organization (ARF, Ohio State, Cornell, whereever) with the stipulation they be used for that research.
Best regards,
Mary Jane

Land of Legends Alpacas
2653 Swans Road
Newark, OH 43055
(740)345-2199
www.alpacanation.com/landoflegends.asp
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allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  09:40:23 AM  Show Profile
Let's look how a study would need to be done:
Numerous camelids would be in control groups, each group being exposed to m-worm continuously. Different amounts and/or frequencies would be given.
The groups that survived would be considered to have had the correct dosage and frequency.
In the field, if a farm gave 1cc yearly, and none died, it wouldn't be proof that it was adequate, it would just mean no m-worm was ingested outside of the window.
If someone dies, well, it's not enough.
I do consider Neil in Maryland to be the expert on m-worm. He's a doctor, and discovered inadequate dosing, losing some alpacas as a result. He was on the 6 week regimen, and now is monthly at 1cc/50 lbs.
Experience is the best teacher IMO

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Maņana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
http://alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!
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sherryp

21 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  09:59:16 AM  Show Profile
If sticking to the 1cc/50lb/4 weeks guideline, is it better to go up on weight or down?

I.e., if I have a weanling who's 65 pounds, should I go with a 1.5cc dose (for 75 pounds) or drop back to 1cc for a 50 pound weight?

Is it possible to overdose on sub-q ivermectin? What about if I've "missed" and gotten some in the fleece, and need to give another dose? Would it be safer to estimate high on what may have been lost, or just better to skip to the next month, and hope what was injected is enough? I'm in DE; the m-worm issue is a real one here.

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Christiane

2779 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  10:02:03 AM  Show Profile
Rick,

Do you use Ivomec or Dectomax? I have always used Dectomax, but give it every five weeks at 1cc per 50 lbs. That is what the farm used where I got my first Alpacas three years ago, and I have used it ever since as well.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-3739
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Christiane

2779 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  10:04:03 AM  Show Profile
Good question, Sherry, and one I've often wondered about as well. Can't wait for an answer.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-3739
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Heidi Christensen

4211 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  10:15:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit Heidi Christensen's Homepage
Hi Sherry,

I'm not in m-worm area, but if I were, I would give 1.3 cc, which is the proper dose for a 65# animal at 1 cc per 50 #

Also, I found this on overdosing on ivermectin.

members.dslextreme.com/users/universe/AmberFoundation
/PoisonOverdose/poiivm_IvermectinOverdose.html#
TabulatedFindings

I took the http out, so just copy and paste. I talks about lethal mouse and rat dosages at the bottom of the page.

Heidi

Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm
Graham, Wa
(253) 846-2168
http://alpacanation.com/wingnutfarm.asp
http://wingnut-alpacas.com

Edited by - Heidi Christensen on 12/07/2006 10:25:37 AM
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sherryp

21 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  10:46:46 AM  Show Profile
Thanks. Now here's one - what if you don't have an accurate weight?

I don't have a livestock scale. It's not cost-effective at this point, because I've only got a "herd" of 2.

I got my boys last week, and the breeder I bought from listed their weights at weaning - about three weeks ago.

Now...should I be estimating their weights based on their body condition? Or is it critical that I have an exact weight? If so, barring the purchase of a $1000 scale within the next couple of weeks, what are my options?

And I went to that site to see the Ivermectin overdosage symptoms. Some of which (scarily) also resemble the symptoms of m-worm infection!! (ataxia, etc.). But informative.

Sherry
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renfarms

433 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  11:31:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit renfarms's Homepage
Sherry,
I wanted to let you know that scales that are adequate for weighing alpacas can be had for $500 or less. For $1,000 you could buy a scale that would weigh horses, which, unless that's a secondary use that you had in mind, would be overkill. I'm sure someone will shortly post links to several companies that sell reasonably priced scales. We use an Arlyn scale, which is sold out of New Jersey. I would recommend looking for scale ads in such magazines as Alpacas, Hobby Farm, American Livestock, etc.

If you have someone who is strong enough, and the animals are fairly calm, you might have a shot at getting a fairly accurate weight by having someone pick them up and then stand on a bathroom scale. Then have the person stand on the scale by themselves and subtract the difference. As long as the total weight doesn't exceed 300 lbs, it should give you a fairly accurate idea. It's not ideal, as weanlings can be fairly heavy and squirmy, but it's worth a shot, and is better than merely guessing their weights. You might also check with local vets and find out if they have livestock scales. When you guess the weight, you run the risk of underdosing or overdosing, both of which can pose problems, in terms of parasite resistance or toxicity. Another idea would be to see if there is another alpaca farm nearby who is willing to let you use their scale!
Good luck,
Bill

Bill and Louise Goebel
Renaissance Farms
McArthur, Ohio 45651
(740) 596-1468
renfarms@starband.net
www.alpacanation.com/renaissancefarms.asp
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Always Accoyo

1347 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  3:07:18 PM  Show Profile
If you are using 1cc/50 lbs, just multiply their weight by 0.02 to get the proper dosage. Since vets treat infected alpacas at much higher dosages, I would rather err on the high side than the low, and always round up.

Nancy Wright
Always Accoyo
Oxford, MI
alpacas@alwaysaccoyo.com
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Christiane

2779 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  3:48:25 PM  Show Profile
If you have a feed store near you, and could transport the weanlings, you might be able to use that scale. I have also used the people scales to weigh my young crias. As long as you can pick them up, that is a doable way to get their weights. Getting them to hold still enough to get a pretty accurate weight is no easy task. It is best that you have somebody else there to read the weight. With a squirmy cria in your arms, you probably won't be able to see the scale.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-3739
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allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2006 :  11:21:49 PM  Show Profile
I was out taking a girl for breeding, and saw a couple of questions here, some answered, but I'll chime in.
Many farms do not have scales. A couple of years back, our vet was going yo need to sedate an alpaca, she used a weight tape (she forgot I had a scale) and was within 5% of the weight (I don't remember the specifics) I'll try to remember to ask the vet about it wnen I see her.
My preference, when using a wormer, is to err on the high side. I look at probability and outcome. If I give a little too much, the alpaca will be fine, the worms will be dead. If I give too little, the worms will be resistant, so I'll need an even higher dose next time.
For those in the east, with M-worm, stakes are MUCH higher.
My worms are pretty innocuous, your's kill.
Much as I hate to be repetitive, here goes the avermectin stuff again.
Dectomax advertised a longer level of protection, so the myth carried to alpacas.
If you stick your alpaca with Ivermectin, it will kill INTESTINAL worms from today to one month from today. If you use Dectomax, it wil kill INTESTINAL worms for 6 weeks.
An avermectin is an avermectin, period.
Dectomax and Ivermectin are both avermectins. The difference is the vehicle (method of delivery)
Ivermectin will achieve a high blood level almost immediately, and work for 4 weeks. Dectomax will achieve a high blood level in about 2 weeks, then work for 4 weeks.
Both are only effective for 4 weeks, it's just a matter of which 4 weeks.
For intestinal worm treatment, which is not an emergency, IMO Dectomax wins.
For M-worm, it's a draw.
I'm not in M-worm country, but I sent 2 of my best females for breeding this year to M-worm country. They got Dectomax before they left and on return. Why Dectomax vs Ivomec? Stings less

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Maņana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
http://alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!
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Heidi Christensen

4211 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  12:22:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit Heidi Christensen's Homepage
Bill,

Your suggestion about the vet reminded me of when I took my moms and crias in for newborn checkups. We were all done, and I asked the vet if they had a livestock scale - I was curious more than anything. He said sure, in the waiting room. I had forgotten, and was figuring since they do horses that they must have a stock scale too. So we grabbed up a cria, made sure there were no dogs in the waiting room, and headed off. Amazingly, they walked into the little gate set up they have around the scale and we had no problem getting both of the moms weighed. The trip back to the large animal area was a bit more interesting - both moms decided they wanted to go in the vets office. Regardless, I would take any of my adults back if I really needed to know. I would think any vet that you work closely with would be happy to do the same.

Heidi

Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm
Graham, Wa
(253) 846-2168
http://alpacanation.com/wingnutfarm.asp
http://wingnut-alpacas.com
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daleppard

150 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2006 :  11:43:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit daleppard's Homepage
Rick,

When you sent your girls why did you use Dex? If it takes two weeks to start working you had a two week period that your alpacas were exposed. I would thik the stinging should be the least of our worries. It only stings for a second. These animals are pretty tough and I am sure they can handle it. Us wimpy humans, that is a different story.

Brent Barnhart
Shearwood Forest Alpacas
Mishawaka, IN. 46545
574-257-4954
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allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2006 :  12:28:22 PM  Show Profile
On the way out, they stopped by the nationals, total trip to breeding farm was about 10 days. They were up to date on shots on return.
It takes a bit of time to pass the blood brain barrier, to even give the Dex before leaving and on arrival was probably unnecessary, just that with M-worm, I'll take no chances

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Maņana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
http://alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!
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