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 2. Alpaca Healthcare & Nutrition
 Ivomec oral versus injectable
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breezyridge

151 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2008 :  3:30:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit breezyridge's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I would like input on using oral ivermectin for m-worm prevention instead of coming at the alpacas with a shot every month. I have tried flavored ivermectin from my Vet and they actually come to me for the med and not run away. I read mixed reviews on this on the forums. I have talked with 3 local Vets and they all say that we can give injectable by mouth as well as SQ. It will just taste nasty. They say ivermectin is ivermectin and it does the same thing either way you use it. It is used orally in dogs to prevent heartworms in tiny doses. So then why would anyone say that it is a waste of time and money to use ivermectin orally in the alpacas?

Connie Blechle
Perryville, MO.
www.breezyridgealpacas.com

Paradise

922 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2008 :  3:41:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Paradise's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Although not a veterinarian, I'll take a quick stab at this. Dogs and alpacas have vastly different digestive systems. Many oral drugs do not work on alpacas, or they work at much higher dosages than in dogs. I have watched a necropsy, and even knowing the anatomy ahead of time, I was astounded at how huge the digestive system is, compared to other animals.
You can used ivermectin orally for gut parasites (although most are now resistant), but preventing M-worm is dependent on the drug getting to the bloodstream, not the gut, and it just doesn't get there with oral administration.
You could have your vet call Steve Purdy, who has probably done the most research on M-worm.
There are probably others on here who can expand with more veterinary experience than me.

Laura Hillman
Paradise Alpacas
Hempstead, TX
979-826-9559
www.alpacanation.com/paradisealpacasoftx.asp
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APacaFunFarm

1193 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  12:27:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry I didn't see this post earlier. Laura is correct, oral ivermectin (or dectomax for that matter) is not effective for M-worm prevention. This has been studied and comfirmed. Stick with the shots.

Best regards,

Neil

A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
www.apacafunfarm.com
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breezyridge

151 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  12:37:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit breezyridge's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Where is the study and confirmation that oral ivermectin does not work for M-worm prevention? I just spoke on the phone with Dr. Karen Baum which seem to be well known as a camelid vet. She stated that she has studied over 17 herds, in m-worm territory, which use oral ivermectin and none of the herds have gotten M-worm unless they failed to give it monthly. She said the injectible would probably work the same but getting flavored Ivermectin makes it so much easier and likable for the alpacas. I know mine sure do like me coming at them with something yummy, rather than a shot every month. Dr. Baum also suggested using safeguard every 3rd month in place of Ivermectin.

Connie Blechle
Perryville, MO.
www.breezyridgealpacas.com
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fererro

59 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  3:26:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Conni

Safeguard is not used for M worm. It is for parasites like nematodes (sp) and whip worm & so forth. I wouldn't miss giving 1 dose of the dectomax shot on our alpaca. We live not to far from you and we have quite a few deer. Just not worth the chance of them getting m worm.

Lisa Fererro
Big River Alpacas
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Upperfarmnic

491 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  3:49:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Safeguard is not used to prevent M-worm. It is used (in addition to banamine, injectible ivermec and thiamine) to treat an alpaca infected with M-worm.

Connie, I recommend you get a copy of the Norm Evans manual, which is unfortunately inbetween printings. Have this as a reference when you have these discussions with your vets. My vets use this themselves, and they keep themselves updated on any treatments that Dr. Evans has changed since the last version was printed.

I've never heard or read anywhere that oral is a substitute for injecticble, nor that Safeguard is a substitute for injectible ivermec. I think if it were true that you could vaccinate alpacas with something that made them happy to see you it would be standard practice by now!

Nicole Carter
Upper Farm Alpacas
Pownal, ME
niccarr33@msn.com
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Paradise

922 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  3:54:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit Paradise's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Not entirely true. Safeguard is used to treat and it used to be part of the prevention. There are some vets out there that do still encourage using it every 3rd month, but most are not due to the resistance issues it creates on two categories of wormers instead of just one. As far as I know, Dr Purdy, Dr Anderson, and Dr Evans all say Ivermectin injected every month.
Honestly, I can do 30 shots quicker than I can do 30 oral meds after a little practice and very few of the animals make much of a deal about it, and I know it hasn't been spit out. I do have one boy who moans and sinks to his knees and in general is a big baby, but most don't even flinch.
I'll try to find a link later on the oral, but you could google yourself and look for it.

Laura Hillman
Paradise Alpacas
Hempstead, TX
979-826-9559
www.alpacanation.com/paradisealpacasoftx.asp
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AbenakiAcres

294 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  7:32:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit AbenakiAcres's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We also follow the same vet's advice - oral does not carry the same efficacy as injectable, I also agree that the shots go quickly - a group of alpacas in a catch pen, and bim bam boom you're done. While I haven't tried it -some people swear by the "poke and shoot" method of SubQ shots - clip the tip of the plastic needle cover to the right depth and you can "poke and shoot" without lifting the skin to create a tent. In theory that would go even faster than the standard SubQ methods.

PS The "poke and shoot" is just a phrase to describe what you do - not a medical procedure.

Bill

Bill & Elizabeth Johnson
Sergeantsville, NJ
www.AbenakiAcres.com
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Paradise

922 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 :  9:45:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Paradise's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I actually tried the "poke and shoot" method at one point. To me it was much more trouble to keep track of the needle cover that had been cut and to interchange, and made it much more likely I would "poke and shoot" myself. Also seemed easier to me (I do all the shots, etc by myself) for the animal to pull away after the poke, but before or during the shoot!

Laura Hillman
Paradise Alpacas
Hempstead, TX
979-826-9559
www.alpacanation.com/paradisealpacasoftx.asp
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weoclo

34 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2008 :  2:30:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have used the "poke and shoot" method as well. To me it's no big dealto give shots to my herd, but my guard llama has other ideas, and it is MUCH easier to use this method with her! I have also recommeded it to someone who has been a little less than enthusiastic about injections...

Connie
Crooked Creek Alpacas
Petersburg, OH
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2008 :  07:34:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Connie,

We are located in VA and in our 8th year of using a combination of oral Ivermectin and Safeguard in scheduled rotation to prevent meningeal worm.

Safeguard IS effective for treating meningeal worm in the doses we use, and as prescribed by Dr. Baum. Safeguard is also used as a treatment for meningeal worm.

The only study of which I am aware which "proved" Ivermectin was ineffective in camelids when administered orally, was done at OSU using half the dose that we use. This does not, IMO, prove that oral administration is ineffective, simply that oral dosage at half strength is ineffective, and the same would probably hold true if using half the recommended dose in injectable format.

The OSU study also suggested that Ivermectin was not effectively absorbed through the stomach in camelids. Dr. Baum has indicated that oral Ivermectin acts like a mouth drench in a horse, and is absorbed into the system long before it reaches the stomach. She has also commented in the past that it is necessary to examine tissue samples, not just blood samples, to determine whether the Ivermectin has been absorbed into the system, but this level of research requires destroying the animal and has not, to my knowledge, been done.

The only ticks we have ever found on our alpacas are already dead, which suggests that adminstering Ivermectin orally does deliver it into the alpaca's system pretty effectively!

I have no problem with giving alpacas shots, but am not willing to do so unless it is necessary. I recently attended a necropsy on an alpaca that had been treated with injectable medication for several days. The damage and bruising below the skin was not pretty, and a reminder of how stoic these animals are. Any time you give an alpaca a shot, you risk injury and infection, so we only do so when necessary.

Administering Ivermectin orally is less stressful for our alpacas and very time-efficient - I can worm 30 by myself in the barn in less than 15 minutes, and a number of them even help out, by turning into the oral dosage syringe and lifting up their lip to make the process easier, because the molasses in the oral formulation we use actually tastes good. Obviously, this benefit alone would not justify using the oral dosing method, but it certainly helps!

Jane.

www.thistledownalpacas.com
Ph: (804)-784-4837 Fax: (804)-784-4839

Edited by - janechristie on 09/12/2008 09:18:16 AM
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APacaFunFarm

1193 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2008 :  10:57:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by janechristie
The only study of which I am aware which "proved" Ivermectin was ineffective in camelids when administered orally, was done at OSU using half the dose that we use. This does not, IMO, prove that oral administration is ineffective, simply that oral dosage at half strength is ineffective, and the same would probably hold true if using half the recommended dose in injectable format.

The OSU study also suggested that Ivermectin was not effectively absorbed through the stomach in camelids. Dr. Baum has indicated that oral Ivermectin acts like a mouth drench in a horse, and is absorbed into the system long before it reaches the stomach.
Jane.



That's very interesting Jane.

Connie had challenged me to document the study I was refering to earlier in the thread. I had originally learned about this study in conversation with David Pugh, but hadn't had time to google the reference for Connie. Do you have the reference handy?

The points that Karen Baum makes sound quite plausable, and certainly worth looking at more closely.

Best regards,

Neil

A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
www.apacafunfarm.com
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breezyridge

151 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2008 :  11:35:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit breezyridge's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This sure is getting interesting now. Thanks Jane for the input on the study. I searched high and low and could not find anything that said oral was not as effective in any worming of animals of any kind. Matter of fact I found a study in Google scholar that oral actually got into the system of dogs better than SQ.
I suppose we should post here that Dr. Baum suggest 1cc 1% ivermectin for 50#. That is her formula is 2% so 1cc per 100# should be the dosage. She said this is the dosage recommended for oral or injectable. I thought it was 1cc per 70#. That is what Evans manual recommends.

Connie Blechle
Perryville, MO.
www.breezyridgealpacas.com
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2008 :  12:21:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Neil,

Same problem here I'd afraid! Learned about the OSU study through conversations with Dr. Karen Baum, Dr. David Anderson and Dr. Claire Whitehead, but cannot currently find a direct reference to the study on the OSU site. Dr. Baum has been actively involved with ARF and it's research programs for many years, and has owned camelids in our area for decades, so I find it difficult to believe she would risk the lives of her own animals, or stake her professional reputation on this worming method, if there was conclusive evidence that oral administration of Ivermectin was ineffective, but I too would like to find a direct reference to the study!

Hi Connie,

The OSU website does state, per Dr. David Anderson, that "The most efficacious anthelmintics for protection against meningeal worm have been ivermectin (1 cc of 1% ivermectin per 100 pounds body weight, injected under the skin, every 4 to 6 weeks)". As you mentioned, Dr. Baum is currently recommending 1cc of 2% oral ivermectin per 100lbs, which is DOUBLE the injectable rate recommended by OSU. You can see why if OSU used their recommended injectable Ivermectin rate in an oral study, it would be half of what we are currently using.

However, and this is a great, big, hairy whatever folks - I am not a veterinarian, am reluctant to discuss dosages online, and do not recommend that ANYONE makes decisions about worming protocols without discussing the details with a knowledgable camelid vet in their area. Worming protocols differ between areas, and can also change over time as parasites adapt and potentially develop resistance, so please, please don't follow medical advice on a forum without involving your vet!!

Take care,

Jane.

www.thistledownalpacas.com
Ph: (804)-784-4837 Fax: (804)-784-4839

Edited by - janechristie on 09/12/2008 6:37:23 PM
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Christiane

2789 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2008 :  12:50:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was at OSU several weeks ago and asked what the current recommendation was, and the answer: 1cc per 70#(injected).

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-3739
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2008 :  3:18:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Christiane

I was at OSU several weeks ago and asked what the current recommendation was, and the answer: 1cc per 70#(injected).


Hi Christiane,

So it looks like OSU needs to update it's website, as I cut and pasted the text above re their injectable Ivermectin dosage recommendations directly from the OSU website this morning!

Jane.

www.thistledownalpacas.com
Ph: (804)-784-4837 Fax: (804)-784-4839

Edited by - janechristie on 09/12/2008 3:21:35 PM
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Circle M Alpacas

257 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2008 :  2:57:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Folks,
One additional consideration with oral vs injectables in regard to Dr. Baum, she has a sizable llama herd and some award winning alpacas. To my knowledge not one of her llamas or alpacas have ever had m-worm. She has been using the oral on her herd for quite a while.
We have enjoyed using the oral when the alpaca's fleece is at its densest, usually from Christmas thru shearing in May. After shearing we do the injectables again. For us, it is just a cost thing although the price may have gone down since our last purchase.


Candi b Mitchell
Circle M Alpacas
540-384-7599
Catawba, VA 24070
circlemalpacas@aol.com
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BeachRunFarm

96 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2012 :  9:55:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is a controversy over this very thread now on FB. We have always used poke and shoot with our alpacas, and they have rarely objected as it goes quickly, and to try to force the drench down their throats is much more difficult in my opinion.

I have never hear of using Safeguard in PREVENTING M-worm. We use strictly Ivermectin.

Just my opinion.

Patricia
Beach Run Farm
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