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 3. Birthing & Neonatal Care
 Inducing Labor
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sparky168

74 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  11:42:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just wondering if anyone has had to induce their alpaca before. Our girl is 366 days pregnant and I have two vets saying they want to induce by day 370 and one vet that does not seem to think she needs to be induced. Did anyone have any problems when they had females induced?

Riptide Farms
Sussex, NJ 07461
973-222-9401

PheasantRidgeAlpacas

122 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  12:53:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit PheasantRidgeAlpacas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We've never had to induce, so I'm no help, but I'm wishing you luck with whatever you decide to do! I think I remember reading a thread on this awhile back, tho. I'd try doing a search.

Good luck!



Heidi Ellefson
Pheasant Ridge Alpacas LLC
Bangor, Wisconsin
http://www.alpacanation.com/pheasantridge.asp
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highpeaksalpacas

1291 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  1:11:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit highpeaksalpacas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
laila at Graceland Farms alpacas in Maine just did this recently...please contact her as her dam is having some problems since the induction... a healthy cria resulted, but the dam is not well. Hopefully she is getting better daily..but laila will be happy to share her experience..she has posted here many times..and has posted about the induction. Good luck with your decision.


Debbie
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp

You only live once...live with alpacas!
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allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  1:45:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I did collect a lot of data on gestations a while back, here's what I found:
The average gestation is 347 days
The median gestation is 345.5 days.
Average birth weight is 17.2 lbs
The gestations that were longer than the median had a negligible (0.49 lb) higher weight than the shorter gestations. There was no correlation between problems and long gestations.
For the births January - June, the average gestation is 350 days.
For births July - December, the average gestation is 344.5 days.
8.7% of gestations are one year or longer.
The shortest gestation resulting in a live cria is 291 days. The longest gestation is 426 days.
The possible cause of long gestation (over 370 days) was unknown in many cases, but in some, sickness or stress mid-gestation seemed like a likely culprit. The stresses were usually extreme weather related. My theory is that the gestation was placed on hold during the stress.

Here, I sit back, relax and watch. The apple will fall from the tree when it's ripe.

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Maņana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
951-217-0306
alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
Life is Good!
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kipaca

769 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  2:25:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit kipaca's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Sparky168...call me 207-353-2171 I'll be happy to discuss my experience with induction....mom now has an ulcer...probably not as a result of the induction...


Laila


Laila V Roukounakis
Graceland Alpaca Farm
Lisbon Falls, Maine
207-353-2171
info@gracelandfarm.com
www.alpacanation.com/graceland.asp
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Koehlers

782 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2009 :  9:20:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Koehlers's Homepage  Send Koehlers a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Maryann Marsh and Don Marquette have both had induced and had no problems.
They are both on this site. If you do a search on inducing you will find Don's info.

Tracey Koehler
(989)751-0269
Koehlers 4 Star Alpacas
Michigan
http://koehlers4star.tripod.com/index.html
www.alpacanation.com/koehlers4staralpacas.asp
http://michianalpacas.ning.com
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Always Accoyo

1347 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  5:33:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wonder when labor is induced whether the chances of dystocia are increased? What makes the baby get into the right position when it isn't really time for birth according to mom and baby?

Nancy Wright
Always Accoyo
Oxford, MI
248-236-0115
alpacas@alwaysaccoyo.com

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highpeaksalpacas

1291 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  9:25:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit highpeaksalpacas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good point Nancy..
Personally I was induced for three days when I was pregnant for my son...ht wasn't pretty..ended up having a c section on day 4..not that it relates to alpacas... just remembering the worst part of my son's life..he is now a smart, strapping 6'2" 16 yr old...and I'd do it again in a second! Am I off topic?? :)

Debbie
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp

You only live once...live with alpacas!
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sparky168

74 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  10:09:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am afraid of dystocia, that is why I was asking if other owners have done it. My vet in the area said that she is having a problem this year with females going long and the babies were pretty big. She said it has caused a lot of problems on her farm so she recommended inducing. I'm still on the fence on what to do. I have until Friday, and I'm kind of hoping she decides to have it before I have to make a decision. She will be on day 370 when we induce her.

Riptide Farms
Sussex, NJ 07461
973-222-9401
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allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2009 :  10:48:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll restate what the data showed.
The gestations that were longer than the median had a negligible (0.49 lb) higher weight than the shorter gestations. There was no correlation between problems and long gestations.

I personally would not only be concerned with dystocia, but dysmaturity, lack of milk and other things.
She's your alpaca, so you will be the one to make the decision. Should you choose to induce, I would recommend that you have your ducks in a row. There is a long list of supplies needed with dysmature crias.
I do know that some people on the forum have successfully induced, but to be quite honest, the concept scares the hell out of me.

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Maņana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
951-217-0306
alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
Life is Good!
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TheAlpacaRosa

571 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  12:04:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit TheAlpacaRosa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sparky168

Just wondering if anyone has had to induce their alpaca before. Our girl is 366 days pregnant and I have two vets saying they want to induce by day 370 and one vet that does not seem to think she needs to be induced. Did anyone have any problems when they had females induced?

Riptide Farms
Sussex, NJ 07461
973-222-9401



Hello Sparky,

Yes, we have induced about 10 females , 6 of our own and 4 friend's animals. We have had 100% great success. We have no bad stories to report such as NO Milk, or low IGG , high incident of dystocia,or anything else we can see at this time. We are very pleased we chose to go down this path of learning about induction. The benefits far outweigh the risks in our opinion. Once you start inducing, you start to see MANY benefits to inducing. We feel it has saved the lives of about 4 crias in all.

Interesting how the tide is turning up here in Northeast Ohio. I believe most alpaca vets in our area are now "on board" with inducing.6 months ago.... NOT! As our farm did over a year ago, the vets have done the research and are finding excellent reasons for inducing. One of the bigger alpaca vets in the area recently admitted to me at a seminar that "we have recently found an excellent new weapon to add to our arsenal. Induction is a great tool". This was after 6 inductions! He was quite excited about it.


Our friend had a dystocia , but the fact that the dam was induced, we knew within a few hours when EXACTLY the cria would be delivered. We are convinced inducing her, saved that cria's life, because the owner would not have ordinarily been home during normal delivery times. But since she was induced, she was at the scene at 22 hours and could see there was a problem. she Simply called the vet mid day,(since birth was planned to be delivered at 1PM) vet came right out and pulled out healthy cria.

I have spoke to DVM Cheryl DeWitt(approx 100 inductions) about the chances of increased number of dystocias with induction at 350 days and she told me there would be no increase. Infact, probably less, because crias will be smaller than if you were to wait another 2-4 weeks. Smaller crias equals less dystocias.

I feel that once more data gets out there, and breeders get over their anxietys about induction, it will be used quite regularly by many. I think our industry will eventually conclude that inductions are an important tool to consider in many situations.

Happy to answer any questions you have on induction, Sparky, give us a call.

Don Marquette
The AlpacaRosa
Ohio
www.alpacanation.com/thealpacarosa
www.TheAlpacaRosa.com
http://alpacaguy.com

Edited by - TheAlpacaRosa on 09/10/2009 12:25:17 AM
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kipaca

769 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  07:23:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit kipaca's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Don,

When we induced Serena at 340 days, it took 29 hours before she delivered the cria...cria was in excellent health and full term 19.5 Lbs...she is now 24.5 Lbs at 2 weeks....

The induction was done because the dam was in severe distress and down most of the time...we thought the cria was already dead....the vet tried anything she could think of to see if it was still alive...but found no positive response...

Now we have discovered that the dam is suffering from hepatic lipidosis and we are treating her accordingly...

Just thought I would throw in our experience.....

Laila

Laila V Roukounakis
Graceland Alpaca Farm
Lisbon Falls, Maine
207-353-2171
info@gracelandfarm.com
www.alpacanation.com/graceland.asp
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TheAlpacaRosa

571 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  08:52:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit TheAlpacaRosa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kipaca


Don,

When we induced Serena at 340 days, it took 29 hours before she delivered the cria...cria was in excellent health and full term 19.5 Lbs...she is now 24.5 Lbs at 2 weeks....



Hi Laila ,

29 hours is the longest time Ive heard thus far.
9 or ours fell between 20 hours and 25 hours. We had one deliver at 16 hours, the vet assumed she was already in labor. In such a case, inducing has no impact over natural labor according to Cheryl.
Im aware of dozens of inductions and thus far is seems that Cheryls estimate of 22 hours is right on target for an average.

Don Marquette
The AlpacaRosa
Ohio
www.alpacanation.com/thealpacarosa
www.TheAlpacaRosa.com
http://alpacaguy.com
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sparky168

74 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  12:51:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks so much for all your help. We are going to induce this afternoon. The female is at day 368 so after a year of cooking I am pretty sure the cria will be done! Our vet has had a lot of problems with long getstations this year and has had to correct a bunch of dystocias so she said it would be better to get it out than let it get any bigger which would increase the number of problems we may have. Hope all goes well. I will post back to let everyone know how it went.

Riptide Farms
Sussex, NJ 07461
973-222-9401
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highpeaksalpacas

1291 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  2:40:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit highpeaksalpacas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Maybe the longer time before birth in Laila's induced alpaca had to do with the fact that her vet used estrumate(I believe) vs. oxytocin?

Any thoughts on either of these two drugs for induction from you who have induced successfully??


All of my cria are on the ground and happily pronking at this point...just trying to learn some more about a subject I know little about!


Debbie
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp

You only live once...live with alpacas!
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bobvicki

2960 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2009 :  3:54:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Don,

While I really like the idea of inductions it does raise some questions.

Regarding birth weights, have you noticed a difference in birth weights over the girls you have had deliver in the 355 to 365 day time zone?

What rationale did DMV DeWitt give for saying she would expect less dystocia's other than lower birth weight? I have had a birth at 374 days that was just 16 pounds and have had a birth 2 days ago that was at 325 days and 18.7 pounds, a birth yesterday at 16.3 pounds.
Regarding dystocia's, other than large size dystocias are caused by the cria being in the wrong position, head and neck being positioned wrong so it would seem that inducing an earlier birth instead of letting nature run it's course would create a higher risk of the cria being positioned wrong.

Have you documented the cria's born from induction as far symptoms that would indicate being dysmature?

With the large amount of alpaca births and dystocias being a very small %age of them is it possible that with less than 200 inductions recorded that there is not enough information to make the statement that there is or should be less dystocias with inductions.

Is there yet a difference noticed on inducing maidens vs proven dams?

Since I have Suri's and very limited huacayas all my numbers are on Suri's.

Bob

Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
3288 Halter Avenue
Newton, Iowa 50208
641-831-3576
alpaca@iowatelecom.net
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp
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TheAlpacaRosa

571 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2009 :  01:36:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit TheAlpacaRosa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We have used estrumate for induction.

I will try to answer some of your questions, but some might be better answered by Cheryl herself.

Q:While I really like the idea of inductions it does raise some questions.
Of Course, any new procedure raises questions and concerns.

Q:Regarding birth weights, have you noticed a difference in birth weights over the girls you have had deliver in the 355 to 365 day time zone?

the birth weights are all over the board just like normal birth weights of natural births.

Q:What rationale did DMV DeWitt give for saying she would expect less dystocia's other than lower birth weight?
She gave no other, seems logical to me.

Q:I have had a birth at 374 days that was just 16 pounds and have had a birth 2 days ago that was at 325 days and 18.7 pounds, a birth yesterday at 16.3 pounds.
Regarding dystocia's, other than large size dystocias are caused by the cria being in the wrong position, head and neck being positioned wrong so it would seem that inducing an earlier birth instead of letting nature run it's course would create a higher risk of the cria being positioned wrong.

Why does it seem that way to you? induction produces a natural birth simply started with the help of man(Cheryl DeWitt's description). If Mother Nature is so proficient at putting cria in proper position, why do we have dystocias in the first place? There is plenty of time in a 24 hour period for the cria to get into position. If you are so worried about a dystocia, go get a radiograph done to see position the cria is in. This is what DVM Larry Nagle is doing at Buckeye Vetinary Clinic (OHIO)

Q:Have you documented the cria's born from induction as far symptoms that would indicate being dysmature?
We have had NO dysmature crias to document thus far in our experience. Most farms Im aware of have also not had dysmature crias. I think we will be learning that this fear is PRIMARILY a concern when dealing with wrong human input of data(calendar oops). Don't underestimate the problems associated with crias that can be overly matured. examples of windswept legs, and other temporarily deformed leg issues are often attributed to not having enough room in the womb because of the oversized cria.

Q:With the large amount of alpaca births and dystocias being a very small %age of them is it possible that with less than 200 inductions recorded that there is not enough information to make the statement that there is or should be less dystocias with inductions.

Im sure that Cheryl DeWitt's judgement that no increase of dystocias will occur with induction stems from logic and her experience. Obviously, inductions will allow smaller crias to pass through birth canal because the process of induction forces an earlier birth. Logic would say, that a smaller object passes easier than a larger object. Logic also would say that smaller fetus could get into position quicker and easier than larger fetus.

Q:Is there yet a difference noticed on inducing maidens vs proven dams?
We have induced both. In our small sample, the differences between maiden and proven is no different than with natural birth

Don Marquette
The AlpacaRosa
Ohio
www.alpacanation.com/thealpacarosa
www.TheAlpacaRosa.com
http://alpacaguy.com
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KT

628 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2009 :  06:42:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit KT's Homepage  Reply with Quote
From my small sample of 3 inductions; all 3 were proven dams with no histories of dystocia, all were over 340 days gestation & with firm breeding dates, all had normal births. None of the babies were dysmature, and their weights were typical for the particular dam (2 @ 15+ lbs, 1 @ 19 lbs). Estrumate was used for all and the births occured about 18-20 hours after injection. Yes, I knew I was treading on some minimally charted territory by doing this, BUT, sometimes a single woman operation has to balance the risk, knowing that I'd be here for the births vs having a 16 year old part-time helper have to deal with a birth while I am away from the farm over a 3 day period. For me, it worked in my favor.

Kate

Beech Springs Alpacas
126 Arthur Majette Rd
Aulander, NC 27805
252-332-5642
252-333-9457 (c)
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bobvicki

2960 Posts

Posted - 09/11/2009 :  10:24:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don,

I think inductions are a wonderful tool if used properly such as using a date like 350 days and knowing the accuracy of the breeding date.

I find a couple of contradictions in your data though.
quote:
Q:What rationale did DMV DeWitt give for saying she would expect less dystocia's other than lower birth weight?
She gave no other, seems logical to me.

Q:Regarding birth weights, have you noticed a difference in birth weights over the girls you have had deliver in the 355 to 365 day time zone?

the birth weights are all over the board just like normal birth weights of natural births.


I am not sure that these problems have anything to do with being overly mature since it is my experience that births in the 330-340 range have produced large cria's at birth.
quote:
Don't underestimate the problems associated with crias that can be overly matured. examples of windswept legs, and other temporarily deformed leg issues are often attributed to not having enough room in the womb because of the oversized cria.


I can see lots of advantages of inductions, Kate's situation, or even in areas of the country where a Dam is at the 350 day period and huge snow storms or hurricanes are predicted.

Bob

Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
3288 Halter Avenue
Newton, Iowa 50208
641-831-3576
alpaca@iowatelecom.net
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp
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sparky168

74 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2009 :  5:14:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well the induction went great. Mom delivered the cria at 25 hours so the medicine did what it was supposed to. She was at day 370 gestation. The cria was a little small but doing well. He was up and ready to nurse and then it was all down hill...his umbilical cord ruptured and hemorraghed so he lost a ton of blood...then I think because he was so weak and laying down so much he developed pneumonia...then when we gave him meds and a tranfusion I think he reacted badly to one of the medicines...all in all he just didn't have a chance... We lost him last night at 8 PM. He was a beautiful fawn with dark black markings on his face and dark ears. He had beautiful fleece already and we are very sad to lose him. He would have been a stunner.

Will I ever induce again?

Probably not unless it is medically necessary. I think he needed another week or two in the womb, but I think he just had the worst luck you can get.

Riptide Farms
Sussex, NJ 07461
973-222-9401
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Lee

384 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2009 :  5:21:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am so very sorry to read about your heartache. It is so hard to wait for a year and then have this happen. How's your girl doing? We are thinking of you.

Lee Ann Hammer
Magnolia Hill Alpacas
West Point, VA.
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