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Alpacas of Gettysburg
131 Posts |
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gatewayfarm
1104 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2009 : 5:19:41 PM
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The only thing I have heard bad about Timothy is that if it has gone to seed, the seed heads are very difficult to remove from the fiber.
Frankly, I think a lot of people worry too much about hay. Orchard, Timothy, Brome, Bent, etc. will all work. I have to wonder if Orchard isn't so popular simply because it looks so pretty in the bale.
My $0.02...
Gateway Farm
Alpaca, a natural elegance... |
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highpeaksalpacas
545 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 8:18:42 PM
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For what it's worth ..our alpacas prefer NOT to have orchard grass...If hay is nutritious and you know it's nutritional composition and supplement any necessary "lacking" nutrition...I think if the pacas like it..go for it!
Debbie
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp
You only live once...live with alpacas! |
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Alpacas of Gettysburg
131 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 9:20:44 PM
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Thanks, John and Debbie, so far. You are confirming what I have suspected--that there are more than a few kinds of hay that are suitable for alpacas. Tonight I received a call from a farmer who has 100% orchard grass. The mix is $2.80 a bale, and the 100% grass hay is $4.00 a bale. Now, what do we do? Dr. Evans seems to promote orchard, but that is more than 40% more expensive.
Helen
Alpacas of Gettysburg
suris@alpacasofgettysburg.com
www.alpacasofgettysburg.com
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jillmcm
1545 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 9:58:33 PM
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Helen, for my money, I would prefer a mixed hay rather than 100% anything. Imagine only eating one grass type for months on end - even if it's nutritious, it can't provide as balanced a meal as two or more types of grass. Again, if the protein and the TDN, etc. are good, I'd pick the mixed hay over straight orchard any day. My animals eat mixed native grasses, and they do just fine on them.
Jill McElderry-Maxwell
Bag End Suri Alpacas of Maine - ¡BESAME!
Benton, ME
(207) 453-0109
bagendsuris@roadrunner.com
http://www.alpacanation.com/bagendsuri.asp
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JimR
530 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 10:11:44 PM
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I am not sure we even have orchard grass hay in this area. We seem to have grass hay, grass alfalfa mix, and alfalfa. I have fed them all at different times depending on what was available to us especially at the end of winter before first cutting. We now try to get alfalfa grass mix as we see much less waste, which is really a big savings. They seem to do very well on it. So, I think you should try to give them what they like best that results in the least waste.
My neighbor has a horse that he lets run in a 9 acre pasture after he is done with cutting hay for the season, that pasture is adjacent to our farm. That horse loves our alpacas, he runs when they run, hangs out as close to the fence wherever they are, sleeps right along side the girls night pen every night. We give him the waste hay when we clean up in the morning, and even though he has those 9 acres of alfalfa to eat he whinnies to us every morning when he sees us coming out to feed. I love the horse being next to my alpacas, he reminds me of a big gray sentry. I figure no coyote is going to mess with that big horse to get into my pens, at least on that side of my property. So on second thought, maybe some waste hay isn't that bad after all 
Susan Rempe
Four Corners Alpacas
Bloomfield NM
River11524@msn.com
www.AlpacaNation.com/fourcorners.asp
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highpeaksalpacas
545 Posts |
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MerryDenAlpacas
12 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 9:19:35 PM
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We feed a mix and the alpacas love it :)
Matt
Merry Den Alpacas
North Bangor N.Y
12966
1-518-483-4881 |
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ljohnstontx
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 4:56:26 PM
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For those of you that feed mixed hay, can you tell me what mixture you feed and what percentages? i.e. 50/50 alfalfa orchard
Lisa Johnston
Legends Ranch Alpacas
Princeton, TX |
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MoonSuri
244 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 8:49:00 PM
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Everyone is different. I made homemade hay (what a chore!) with my orchard grass pasture (seeded with 20% Kentucky bluegrass 80% of 2 types of orchard) and they LOVE it. Can't get enough. I ran out, unfortunately, and kept trying to get them to eat the "store bought" stuff. Bought from 2 of the most elite sources I could find - want them to have the best - and they only nibble at that stuff, leave piles around the feeder, keep looking for the good stuff in there! It has the strong alfalfa smell to it instead of that sweet perfect smell of my soft homemade grass hay.
But I think in the winter, they will be happy to have the bales I bought. They will need the extra protein. And that is what the hay is mainly for anyway - for when the pastures are covered in snow. Even now, grazing isn't as effective because the first frost drove the nutrients into the roots of the pasture grass. And remember the pregnant girls need alfalfa mix over the winter.
My two cents,
Ruth at Moonstruck
Brandon, Iowa |
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llamapelli
1186 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:42:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JimR
I am not sure we even have orchard grass hay in this area. We seem to have grass hay, grass alfalfa mix, and alfalfa. I have fed them all at different times depending on what was available to us especially at the end of winter before first cutting. We now try to get alfalfa grass mix as we see much less waste, which is really a big savings. They seem to do very well on it. So, I think you should try to give them what they like best that results in the least waste.
My neighbor has a horse that he lets run in a 9 acre pasture after he is done with cutting hay for the season, that pasture is adjacent to our farm. That horse loves our alpacas, he runs when they run, hangs out as close to the fence wherever they are, sleeps right along side the girls night pen every night. We give him the waste hay when we clean up in the morning, and even though he has those 9 acres of alfalfa to eat he whinnies to us every morning when he sees us coming out to feed. I love the horse being next to my alpacas, he reminds me of a big gray sentry. I figure no coyote is going to mess with that big horse to get into my pens, at least on that side of my property. So on second thought, maybe some waste hay isn't that bad after all
Susan Rempe
Four Corners Alpacas
Bloomfield NM
River11524@msn.com
www.AlpacaNation.com/fourcorners.asp
You are correct, Susan, there isn't much orchard grass around in NM/CO. There, however, folks pay a premium for Timothy. Most of the grass hay that comes from NM and CO is Timothy, K31 and brome. In TX it is virtually all coastal burmuda. All are generally fine for alpacas if they have been appropriately fertilized.
Melanie McMurry MD
Anasazi Alpacas & Kokopelli Llamas
Gladesville, WV
304-864-5210
http://www.alpacanation.com/anasazialpacas.asp |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 07:58:41 AM
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quote:
[i] but it is a 50% orchard grass and 50% timothy mix.
We sell a lot of hay, and most alpaca breeders have told us that Timothy hay is generally hard on the kidneys and have sofar avoided timothy. |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 08:03:51 AM
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NM and CO is Timothy, K31 and brome. In TX it is virtually all coastal burmuda. All are generally fine for alpacas if they have been appropriately fertilized.
[/quote]
K31 (Tall Fescue) is not appropiate for any bred female or any female you are trying to breed. It is endophyte infected and will cause poor conception, abortions, thickening of the placenta, long term pregnacy, poor milk. The way it affects different species varies but it does have detrimental effects on cattle, horses, goats, etc. |
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ljohnstontx
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 08:30:38 AM
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I don't know what other Texas breeders are experiencing but I find it difficult to get my herd to eat anything coastal bermuda related. Could be I haven't found a good source yet...still looking.
Lisa Johnston
Legends Ranch Alpacas
Princeton, TX |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 08:36:22 AM
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quote:
[i] Tonight I received a call from a farmer who has 100% orchard grass. The mix is $2.80 a bale, and the 100% grass hay is $4.00 a bale. Now, what do we do? Dr. Evans seems to promote orchard, but that is more than 40% more expensive.
1. Are we feeding a $200 gelded male fiber animal or a $20,000 bred female.
2. Suppose you have a 200lb animal eating 2% of its body weight per day in hay = 4lbs per day. You have no pasture, so this animal has to eat hay 365 days per year = 1460lb/year or .73 tons of hay per animal per year. Cheap hay = $100/ton or $73/animal Medium quality hay = $225/ton or $164/animal Very nice hay $350/ton or $255/animal. What would one vet call cost?
3. In some parts of the world, mixed hay means t/a or o/a, but for the most part, mixed grass hay, or Mixed Meadow Grass, or Meadow Grass means(whatever happened to be growing there, or whatever crept into the field after the stand of grass that was planted has started to fade) Let me explain. Typically, a farmer will renovate a hay field and plant a monoculture hay crop. After about 4-5 years, this monoculture will start to have native or invasive grasses appearing in the culture thus it has become a polyculture. Many times alfalfa fields are thickened by adding orchardgrass or timothy at about year 4-5 to get 3-4 more good years out of a stand; however, fields of orchardgrass get fescue, brome, crabgrass, weeds, foxtail millet, etc. in them and thus become mixed grass. Sometimes this is not necessarly bad, but if the mixed grasses are noxious, toxic, etc. you have a problem. This is commonly why the mixed grass is so much cheaper than the pure stand. Sort of like a alpaca herd that the owner lost the papers to several generations ago. Might be some great individuals in the herd, but with the registered animals, you KNOW what their grandparents were. |
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gatewayfarm
1104 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 09:06:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by production acres
1. Are we feeding a $200 gelded male fiber animal or a $20,000 bred female.
They all eat the same forage.
My experience is that good hay means less waste, and that can save money. One needs to do the math. If I have stemmy hay and waste 25% of it, then it is worth a premium to buy better hay with less waste.
I have never heard of Timothy being hard on the kidneys. Is this anecdotal? How does one know?
Gateway Farm
Alpaca, a natural elegance... |
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bobvicki
1874 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 09:42:56 AM
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quote:
Tonight I received a call from a farmer who has 100% orchard grass. The mix is $2.80 a bale, and the 100% grass hay is $4.00 a bale. Now, what do we do?
Why not get a couple of bales of each and throw the $2.80 a bale stuff in and see how they eat it and then the $4.00 bales. You could also put both out and see which ones they eat first and most of. Then make your decision.
There are guys around here that will sell grass hay for $3.00 to $3.50 a bale, sometimes it is good and other times loaded with weeds or stems or fuzzy fox-tails. I have always asked for a couple of bales to try before making a large purchase because $3 hay that they turn 50% into bedding not only costs 25-50% more in the long run, it also takes twice the time & effort to stack and put out, and needs more room to store. Even when buying hay for $4-4.50 a bale I get a sample first to make sure they will eat it.
Bob
Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
3288 Halter Avenue
Newton, Iowa 50208
641-831-3576
alpaca@iowatelecom.net
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 11:17:26 AM
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They all eat the same forage.
Yes they can all eat the same forage, but you approach feeding a performance animal much different than a seedstock animal. You are trying to make a profit on the performance animal and the net revenue is small compared to the net revenue on the seedstock animal.
I have never heard of Timothy being hard on the kidneys. Is this anecdotal? How does one know?
I have been told this from several alpaca breeders, but have no studies, practical experience, or direct knowledge of this being the truth. More info on this is appreciated! |
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gatewayfarm
1104 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 11:59:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by production acres
Yes they can all eat the same forage, but you approach feeding a performance animal much different than a seedstock animal. You are trying to make a profit on the performance animal and the net revenue is small compared to the net revenue on the seedstock animal.
Yeah, I guess there are some people foolish enough to waste their money on "pretty" hay.
I approach my entire farming operation with an attitude of frugality.
That does not always mean "cheapest". It means "best value". Our hens get custom milled feed that costs more, but lasts longer (they eat less). All our alpacas get $165/ton 2nd cut orchard grass due to zero waste, since the $135/ton stemmy stuff probably has 30% waste.
Gateway Farm
Alpaca, a natural elegance... |
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Paradise
443 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 12:31:34 PM
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Evans' 2nd Edition, page 135: "This kidney function test indicates some unknown stress associated with Timothy."
I remembered reading it,but he doesn't give specifics.
Laura Hillman
Paradise Alpacas
Hempstead, TX
979-826-9559
www.alpacanation.com/paradisealpacasoftx.asp |
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julie97364
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 12:08:24 PM
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OMG, I'm about to give up. You folks are talking about $4 bales of hay? The best I've found, on sale, was $8.95 for a bale of COMPRESSED (about 50+ lbs.) of orchard grass. I've spent from $12-16 for a regular bale - and they're not easy to find. In this area (Pacific Northwest) many hay growers are now growing straw only, for shipment overseas. No wonder I'm depressed! 
I'll tell you what though, I'm not going to be picky about the type of hay anymore. Whatever I can find at the lowest price is what they'll get.
At this rate, I might just have to find new home(s) for my fiber males. 
Rising Starr Alpaca Farm
In the hills above the beautiful Oregon coast |
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Hay Advice, please
