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 2. Alpaca Healthcare & Nutrition
 How safe is Cydectin or Quest?
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Cooksey

62 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2011 :  3:53:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Cooksey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't have a livestock scale and my vet's scale will only accomodate the crias (dog sized).

For strongyles, I would like to use Cydectin or Quest. How safe are they when guessing on weights?

I do not have an alpaca farmer near me that I know of that has a scale I can use and I haven't found any used scales locally.

Also, when using Safeguard for 5 days or increasing the dosage from 1 ml per 10 lbs, should I be giving thiamine SQ? 3 cc's per 100 lbs?

Thanks. We are in for up to 14 inches of snow over the next couple of days and my barn is long distance. I have a girl with 3 month old cria that has finished her emac treatments (none showing yet) and now has looser than 'balled' stool, not yet a cow plop. She came up with about 110 strongyles across her slides on her latest fecal, (measured 3 grams feces, added sugar solution, stirred, sieved, added sugar solution to 12cc, centrifuged, multiple rises, one slide was 50 and one was 60 off same test tube, different rises.)

She was laying around last night during feeding, unwilling to be caught, so now I'm worried. She was only willing to leave me a fecal and couldn't get her caught up. She appears thinner to the eye than 10 days ago when emac treatment ended.

They are also on higher content alfalfa/orchard grass hay that is really rich and green and alpaca pellets.

Ideas welcome. Checking on her again this pm.

Bonnie

Imaginary Alpaca Ranch
Clyde, OH 43410

jillmcm

3204 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2011 :  5:06:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit jillmcm's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can't answer about Cydectin or Quest's safety, never having needed to use them, but there is no need to use thiamine when giving Safeguard unless you are concerned about PEM for other reasons - Safeguard does not affect the thiamine levels directly (Corid does). Any time an animal is under the weather, though, I tend to give thiamine for a day or two anyway just to try to prevent PEM.

Jill McElderry-Maxwell
Bag End Suri Alpacas of Maine - ¡BESAME!
Benton, ME
(207) 453-0109
bagendsuris@roadrunner.com
http://www.bagendsuris.com
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nyala

3317 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2011 :  7:25:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit nyala's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi,

I keep cydectin on hand in the event that safeguard does not work. My first line of defense for strongyles is still safeguard at 50mgs per kg. According to my vet cydectin does not have very much margin of safety but I don't know if there is any research on that. The info on the bottle says it has an adequate margin of safety in sheep over 4 months of age. It also says "Do not use in sick, debilitated, or underweight animals". it also says "The Use Of Cydectin Oral Drench In Breeding Ewes And Rams Have Not Been Conducted In The U.S" Of course its all off label for alpacas.

Ann

D. Andrew Merriwether, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology and Biology, Binghamton University
and
Ann and Andy Merriwether
Nyala Farm Alpacas,Vestal, NY
www.alpacanation.com/nyalafarm.asp
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anitajacobson

243 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2011 :  8:13:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit anitajacobson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bonnie

I just got three girls in from another farm, one is severly anemic and was loaded with tapeworms, got those out of the way but she kept going down hill and I noticed some fluid build up under her chin, so I am suspecting Barber Pole worm as well.

I used the Quest, 1cc/100 pounds, she is a thin girl so I went with just over 1cc, I took the end of the syringe off and squeezed the Quest into the syringe and just squirted the extra out. No side effects, as of yet, I keep watching closely.

I went ahead with a B Complex injection, it will help stimulate appetite.

Plus I just did an Iron injection, because she is going anemic on me. Check her eye membrane, for me it's easier to judge the eye membrane over the gums because this particular girl has black gums.

She is out eating, normal pellets and normal energy. Hoping to see improvement in the morning, at least with the fluid build up in her jaw.

I wish you luck on your girl, it's so frustrating to see them suffering and sit by, although we are treating them, I always wish there was more I could do for them.

But to answer your questions, I haven't had a reaction to it, although it hasn't been a long time, only about 3 hours, but i don't think an SQ injection of B complex could hurt a thing, and check her membranes to see if she is anemic please.

Anita Jacobson
Sierra Nevada Ranch
Durham, California
www.sierranevadaranch.com
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cbornstein

252 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2011 :  04:52:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

I used Quest in Sept 2010 for my pregnant gal. Her weight was 170lbs and we gave her 1mil. I have not had to treat her since. Quest has worked wonders for my gal and no problems with her cria. Born a healthy baby boy 14.6oz. I first checked fecals after treatment every two weeks and now once a month, no problems and parasites are under control and low counts. My dam had high counts of strongyles.
The farm we were boarding at when I first purchased my animals wormed every month, therefore they became immune to safeguard; very sad. I have learned to make sure to monitor fecals monthly and clean pastures have really helped control the problem in Florida. A farm that I am close to also injects their Alpacas with iron 2 mil, then every two weeks on the Alpacas that show to be anemic for a total of two months; by doing this she saved her two dams that were going down hill quickly because of parasite issues. Both dams are healthy today.
I would make sure to check with your vet first on any shots.

Wish you the very best with your gal and she mends quickly with the awful weather up north.

Christine A Bornstein



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Ice Pond Farm

254 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2011 :  06:32:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ice Pond Farm's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Bonnie. In my limited experience that is a fairly heavy load of strongyles even if the eventual sample was a little over one gram (I'm figuring you lost some of the original three gram sample when you filtered).

I would second Anita's suggestion to check for anemia. If an animal is both anemic and showing a heavy load of strongyles it would suggest the possibility of Barber Pole.

Christine wrote:
quote:
The farm we were boarding at when I first purchased my animals wormed every month, therefore they became immune to safeguard


Hi Christine. Not sure if it is the just the wording in this statement, but it is the parasites that develop immunity - not the animal. If your animals (and their parasites) have not seen Safeguard for some time and have been mixed in with other animals (and their different parasites) the parasites may have lost some of their immunity.

Concerning the iron injections used by your neighboring farm - was this used along with a wormer to treat Barber Pole?


Jeff
Ice Pond Farm
Fiskeville, RI
www.icepondfarm.com
icepondfarm@cox.net
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nyala

3317 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2011 :  08:45:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit nyala's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi,


There is a now an easier less costly test for telling if strongyle eggs are barber pole offered by Oregon State and University of Georgia. The only way to tell before with strongyle eggs was to hatch them out and have a parasitologist check the larvae but this new lectin assay test is quick and much cheaper. It might be worth sending a fecal off and seeing if you are up against barber pole for sure.

If she's not anemic I'd probably go with a larger dose of safeguard over cydectin. I'm so nervous that we are going to run out of wormers that work. RE-check if that didn't work then I'd go to cydectin.

D. Andrew Merriwether, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology and Biology, Binghamton University
and
Ann and Andy Merriwether
Nyala Farm Alpacas,Vestal, NY
www.alpacanation.com/nyalafarm.asp
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Cooksey

62 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2011 :  11:49:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit Cooksey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Checked her again last night. She was up and eating normally, active, did not let me observe her at the poo pile, so don't know how that is going. I was able to lure them into the 'patient' chute with grain and got hands on with her. She has black points, black skin and eyes. No signs of anemia on the eyelids.

Surprisingly she is in good flesh! It was a bit warmer out the other day and things were a bit wetter, so being a huacaya, her fleece may have been giving me false illusions as to her weight. So maybe she just wanted to be bred as she has finished with the laying around...

I did put probiotics and ARREST into her along with some Nutri Drench for added vitamins. And I put electrolytes in their water.

I also got hands on with her cria, him being my 9/27/11 born and the youngest in the herd, I had concerns that the emac may have caused him to lighten up. His fleece is very fine and he is not one of my densest alpacas. But he has grown AND he is also of good flesh.

So now I will just have to treat her for the strongyles and keep checking fecals on her. If they will continue to come into the 'patient' area I can catch them up and do a 5 day treatment of Safeguard. (As long as this pending 'blizzard' allows me)

I do not know at this time what my herd's exposure to barber pole worm has been as I am in Northwest Ohio and I have only dealt with 5 different farms this past 2 years and not been to any shows. I would suspect that if any of those farms had issues with barber pole at the time my girls were there, that they would tell me???

I am assuming that these are JUST strongyles and not barberpole. BUT, I have learned here on the forum that it can rapidly become a serious problem. I will repeat the fecals for a while and see that the strongyles are controlled with the Safeguard.

I really would rather do a 1 X dose of the quest or cydectin for convenience, especially heading into foul weather, but without a scale and an unknown margin of safety I can't afford to cause serious problems because of treatments.

I was surprised to find that the other girl, also finished treatment for emac, nursing a cria, only showed 1 whip/1 Nematodirus on one slide and the longer rise showed 2 whips. She has poo a bit stiffer than the first one, but worse than balled because there are no formed pellets. This could all just be too rich of alfalfa hay. She also got the arrest and the whole herd has access to the water with the electrolytes.

So, IF the Nematodirus is not controlled with Safeguard 5 days and if the Whips are also not controlled with Safeguard 5 days, what would be the next safest drug that should be effective for each of them? One of these girls may be bred and they are both nursing crias.

My last question is regarding Evan's 3rd edition. Does anyone know if the parasite protocols changed from the 2nd edition? That is the one that I have.

I really am confused about the arsenal we have available against each of these parasites and what is the order to use them in. So far, I am pretty CERTAIN that my two 5 day treatments of ALBON 40% worked on the EMAC, confirming that they are NOT resistant EMAC.

I have yet to confirm whether the whips, strongyles, and nematodirus are 'resistant' to Safeguard.

I give Safeguard at 1 ml per 10 lbs. I use the liquid in the liter bottle from PBS. Should I use a stronger dose for any of the above, should I repeat the treatment a week later or anything like that?

Fecals are being pulled daily on a 'volunteer' basis. I take the ones that are 'donated' that I observe and can identify as to who they belong to. This is a group of 21 alpacas in this paddock.

I would really like to get my head wrapped around this whole parasite protocols and am now making 3x5 card file with each drug, what it is used for, the treatment/dosing schedule, and who it can be used on.

My vet seemed to think that I should just dose the transport group with Safeguard and that should take care of whatever parasites may exit in the group. OBVIOUSLY, that was not up to date advice. The camelyd vets are all at least an hour or more away. So I am using Evans and the forum online, and my own scope, centrifuge, fecals.

Can they be recontaminated during the winter by ingesting the eggs and do the eggs hatch into larvae below 40 degrees? There are still those frozen/thawing outside poo piles to consider.

Thanks all! Back to running last nights collection of fecals....

Imaginary Alpaca Ranch
Clyde, OH 43410
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cbornstein

252 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2011 :  3:52:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My earlier statement should have read: The farm boarding my Alpacas treated everyone, every month with Safeguard. The parasites became resistant, therefore the safeguard would not work on my little guy that finally died after treatment for 5 days of safeguard and was not able to warrant off the parasites before we lost him. This little guy was extremely healthy; then all of the sudden without any sign. So now the rest of the alpacas that I own that were on that farm also: parasites do not react to safeguard at all. Reason I say this is we treated and checked two weeks later and we had more parasites. Quest took care of it right away, I was thankful for that. We monitor our Alpacas monthly along with daily checking to see if their are problems to try and head them off. I think this farm choose safeguard because of the cost factor, they had over 75 animals and they lost many of them because of maybe not looking at each individual situation instead of the whole herd. I am still learning everyday and continue to learn from everyone. Thanks for the input.

Christine A Bornstein



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nyala

3317 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2011 :  4:08:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit nyala's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Bonnie (and everybody),

I think barber pole is a lot more common on alpaca farms than folks think. Farms see strongyle eggs and don't realize they could be barber pole. Until recently the only way to tell was to pay a lab to hatch them out or sadly on necropsy. The farms you got animals from may have had strongyles but not had a problem because of good management (pasture rotation, cross species grazing etc). When animals get to a new farm sometimes they get stressed their immune systems are compromised and they become susceptible.

My first line of defense is frequent fecal tests, worming only those that need it, trying to only use safeguard. If the strongyles didn't respond like in Christine's situation then i'd try cydectin.

Good luck,

Ann

D. Andrew Merriwether, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology and Biology, Binghamton University
and
Ann and Andy Merriwether
Nyala Farm Alpacas,Vestal, NY
www.alpacanation.com/nyalafarm.asp
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Cooksey

62 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2011 :  4:38:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Cooksey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is Cydectin and Quest really sensitive to weight? So if I'm guessing weight and off 10-15 lbs is that a problem in an adult alpaca?

Imaginary Alpaca Ranch
Clyde, OH 43410
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cbornstein

252 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2011 :  5:40:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, it is sensitive according to our local vet. I had the weight on my female, but dosed 1/2ml less just in-case. You need to check with a local vet or farm to make sure not to overdose.

Christine A Bornstein



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rgoss1

663 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2011 :  7:02:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Ann - You mentioned that there is now a cheaper test for Barber Pole but you didn't mention the address to send it, how to send it, how much it cost etc. Can you provide any of that?

Also, now that you have seen strongyles that ultimately were identified as Barber Pole, are you able to differentiate between the 2 on your slides?

thanks

Roxanne Goss
Lands End Alpacas LLC
Vermilion, Ohio
gossr@roadrunner.com 440-225-4138
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nyala

3317 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2011 :  1:44:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit nyala's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi,

As I understand it not even a parasitologist can tell the eggs apart so no I can't tell. Here is the address for sending samples not sure if they must come from a vet or if you can send them straight.

http://oregonstate.edu/vetmed/haemonchus-contortus-identification

I believe Georgia is also offering this test:

Bob Storey (Dept. of Infectious Diseases, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Georgia, Athens, Ga., 30602 or 706/542-0195).

D. Andrew Merriwether, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology and Biology, Binghamton University
and
Ann and Andy Merriwether
Nyala Farm Alpacas,Vestal, NY
www.alpacanation.com/nyalafarm.asp
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KUSKA

8 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2011 :  7:46:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit KUSKA's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Guys I just stopped to read this post... and I see several threads that really make me worry!

I am not a vet, However I will tell you if you UNDER DOSE the Quest , as mentioned above...
The the parasites WILL become resistant to it as well!

A scale is a must when giving ANY medication!

1cc of quest for a 170 lb animal is UNDER DOSING..
This will create resistant parasites.

Also PLEASE rerun fecals at 10 days and worm again if ANY remain.

We have VERY few wormers to use on resistant strongyles at this point. Safeguard/Panacur is completely noneffective in most farms these days.. reason? Under dosing, failure to do the 5 days (just giving 1 day), and failure to do the follow up to be sure all were killed.

Please, BUY a scale, and use all wormers at their correct recommended dosages!! PLEASE!

Vida Palmer
Kuska Paku Farm
www.kuskapaku.com
Moss Point, Ms

Vida Palmer
Kuska Paku Farm
www.kuskapaku.com
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Heidi Christensen

4211 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2011 :  10:21:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Heidi Christensen's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bonnie,

I had read through this thread before but the sentence about your vet having a dog sized scale just jumped out at me. It is the floor model, right? I have taken my girls in - and weighed them - on my vets scale out in the waiting room. And one of my girls is over #200. If its a table top model I would understand it only being able to weigh crias, but if it a floor model, it should be able to take any but the largest alpacas. I just made sure there wasn't any people with dogs in the waiting room before I took them out there

Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm
Graham, Wa
(253) 846-2168
http://alpacanation.com/wingnutfarm.asp
http://wingnut-alpacas.com
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Cooksey

62 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2011 :  10:31:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit Cooksey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Heidi, the vet scale is platform and big enough to weigh crias, but adult alpacas just step off of it because they are too long for the scale.

In all the responses, I do not have a dosage for Cydectin or Quest jumping out at me.

At TSC they have a tube of Quest for horses sold only in a 'single horse single dose' tube and it either said it contained 4 ml or .4 ml of the drug (I don't remember). I thought that for adult alpacas that one whole tube wouldn't deliver enough of the drug for a single dose.

One of the other girls is thinner (hidden by fleece of course), checked the eyelid, it's white, and she is looking for extra food, so even though I'm graining at a pound a head and they have a high alfalfa ratio of orchard grass hay, it isn't enough with her parasite loads.

I have to go check records, but it was whips, nematodirus, and strongyles.

I can try 20 ml of Safeguard for 5 days because I have it ON HAND, but she HAS had Safeguard before her emac treatments at 1 ml/10 lbs. Still no signs of emac coming back. But need to address the other parasites.

Of course, if they just get recontaminated within 10 days of treatment, it's an ongoing battle and with wet muddy paddock, all I can do to reduce that load is put down more straw to keep them out of it and help keep the puddling down.

I'd like the current dosing of Cydectin and Quest as I don't see that at all in the responses above.

I will start her on Nutri-drench today and the Safeguard at the higher dosages until I find out correct dosing on the other drugs. I just have Evans 2nd Edition for references and my vets are a horse vet and a large livestock vet and they are not up to date on alpaca parasite treatments and precautions.

Imaginary Alpaca Ranch
Clyde, OH 43410
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Judith

4006 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2011 :  10:43:09 AM  Show Profile  Send Judith a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
If her inner eyelid is white, you should get that stuff into her ASAP or you'll lose her anyway! She's obviously got something going on that prior wormers haven't helped and I'd also suspect haemonchus(barberpole). If she's that anemic, she needs help now.

Judith Korff
AlpacaNation Forum Co-Moderator
LadySong Farm Bolivian Suri Alpacas
Randolph, NY 14772
Cell: (716) 499-0383
www.alpacanation.com/ladysong.asp
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nyala

3317 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2011 :  7:59:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit nyala's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi,

If she has gone white there is no time to lose and you might want to think about a transfusion. If you have safeguard on hand, I'd dose her at 50mgs per kg for five days. If its barber pole the larvae that over winter are much harder to kill. You could try cydectin but I wouldn't try it without a weight. . I have never used quest but we use cydectin sheep drench as a last resort and the dose is double the sheep dose on the bottle.

Ann

D. Andrew Merriwether, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Anthropology and Biology, Binghamton University
and
Ann and Andy Merriwether
Nyala Farm Alpacas,Vestal, NY
www.alpacanation.com/nyalafarm.asp
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TheAlpacaRosa

571 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2011 :  11:35:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit TheAlpacaRosa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Quest dosage is 1cc per 100 lb. As you can see it's a very small amount and would be hard to correctly dose without weighing. No farms around you with scales?

Carolyn

Don Marquette
The AlpacaRosa
Ohio
www.alpacanation.com/thealpacarosa
www.TheAlpacaRosa.com
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Cooksey

62 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2011 :  12:08:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Cooksey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No farms with scales working that I know of.

I put 1.5 cc in the drench and added 5 ml of water and shook it up to make sure she would get the full dose down the drenching tube. Then followed it up with the same syringe with nutri drench.

She is behaving normally and eating well.

She's only ever been wormed with Safeguard, Ivermectin, and recently the Albon in January.

When they are skinnier than the rest of the group, I do start the worrying. Seems like I'm good at that.

I figured out how to dose the Quest after reading the tube and my notes. I will recheck her fecal in about a week and see if counts are improved with a possible redosing at 10 days.

I don't have real good lighting in the barn and I am checking them in the evening light as well, not bright daylight.

So far this winter, all stock is doing well and spunky.

Only a couple of them are showing strongyles at all and then in the 0-25 or so count per 3 grams of fecal, pulled off one test tube.

But we are having lots of rain and mud in the paddock, so I'm thinking reinfection is likely as well.

Thank you all,
Bonnie

Imaginary Alpaca Ranch
Clyde, OH 43410
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