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BrianH
18 Posts |
 Posted - 09/30/2009 : 10:32:10 PM
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This is our first winter with Alpacas, I have availability of free hay which would be a huge help. I sent off samples of this hay and also the hay the previous owners of the farm used. Here are the results of the two.
Free Hay Purchased Hay
Moisture 12.3 12.4
Crude Protein 13 14
TDN 49.7 50.4
Cal to Phos 4:1 2.8:1
Potassium 1.96 2.07
Iron 130 125
RFV 106 95
Everything looks in line to what I have read online other than the calcium to phosphorus ratio. How important is this? I am hoping that the free hay will work as it will save us hundreds of dollars, but I do not want it to cost us thosands latter.
Thanks,
Brian & Karley Houchin
Houchin Family Alpacas
Heyworth, IL
www.HouchinFamilyAlpacas.com
HouchinFamilyAlpacas@verizon.net
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highpeaksalpacas
545 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2009 : 06:48:44 AM
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Do you feed a supplement as well as hay?
If so - will that fill in the gap you are worried about?
I'd definitely feed them the free hay!
Debbie
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp
You only live once...live with alpacas! |
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BrianH
18 Posts |
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highpeaksalpacas
545 Posts |
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Ian Watt
633 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 8:14:41 PM
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This is not good quality hay!!
The TDN should be up around the 55 - 60% mark and the C:P ratio need to be closer to 2:1 - unless there is some alfalfa in it which would explain the higher than desired C:P ratio and, if stemmy, the lower TDN.
I wonder how old it is and how late in the season it was cut.
However, the final decision is likely to be economic in which case it may well be a "good buy" even though it may require to be supplemented by some grain (oats) or prepared pellets.
Regards
Ian Watt
Alpaca Consulting USA
www.alpacaconsultingUSA.com
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highpeaksalpacas
545 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 8:24:31 PM
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Which is exactly why I asked if you were supplementing... and if your supplement could make up the differences..
Most supplements for alpacas are formulated for alpaca needs..and in these times..I'd still go for the free hay..and check into what I needed to cover what is missing.
Debbie
High Peaks Alpacas
Wilmington, NY
www.alpacanation.com/highpeaks.asp
You only live once...live with alpacas! |
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Nancy@autumn
14 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 12:48:23 AM
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Hi,
I don't see anything in the analysis about nitrates. That is the one thing I recall that our vet has cautioned us about when buying hay. Nitrate toxicity can be deadly.
Nancy
Nancy Edwards
Autumn Sunrise Ranch
Monroe, WA |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 3:00:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nancy@autumn
Hi,
I don't see anything in the analysis about nitrates. That is the one thing I recall that our vet has cautioned us about when buying hay. Nitrate toxicity can be deadly.
Nitrates are almost never a problem with any hay but millet, bermuda, small grains (wheat, oats, rye) Unless you have an odd drought stress condition, most cool season grass hay will not see a nitrate problem. |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 3:08:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Watt
This is not good quality hay!!
I wonder how old it is and how late in the season it was cut.
a rfv of 106 is not to be laughed at! There is not a listing of the species of hay here, but unless it is more than 50% alfalfa, 106 is not bad - nor is it "OLD" OR cut late in the season! IF this is a 100% grass hay, it is pretty decent for free! Yes, it may be desirable to be 125rfv and 100% 2nd cutting orchardgrass, but there are plenty of good hays out there with a 82 rfv - it may not be desirable for your wishes, but that does not mean "this is not good quality hay" |
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Ian Watt
633 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 4:23:08 PM
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Pardon me?
I wasn't talking about rfv (it is not a term I am familiar with and I have never seen it referred to in any hay quality discussions before), I was talking about the 'essentials' in evaluating hay quality.
There are reasons why TDN varies and the most common one is early or late cutting (the highest TDN's are at 30% flowering stage cut) and lateness in the cutting season when flowering does not happen.
We are talking about hay being suitable for alpacas and it was in that context that I was offering an opinion - and my opinion is still that it is not good hay, regardless of whether it is free or not.
Simply put, being free is NO arbiter of quality, the TDN IS low and the C:P ratio IS out of whack!
Ian Watt
Alpaca Consulting USA
www.alpacaconsultingUSA.com
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rgoss1
193 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 8:39:42 PM
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When I've asked suppliers if they test their hay, they always tell me that testing is pointless unless you're going to have every bale tested. According to them, even within the same field, the soil can differ enough to impact what is grown.
For those of you who know hay, does this make sense?
thanks
Roxanne Goss
Lands End Alpacas LLC
Vermilion, Ohio
gossr@roadrunner.com 440-225-4138 |
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LibertyWool
7 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 10:04:39 PM
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| Yes and no. One field I hay has about 1/3rd of the field that is much better than the other 2 thirds. Some fields are very uniformed and some are not. Also, if all the hay is not harvested at the same time, that can cause a variance in quality from the same field. A good sample will be taken from multiple parts of the hay mow. |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2009 : 11:57:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Watt
I wasn't talking about rfv (it is not a term I am familiar with and I have never seen it referred to in any hay quality discussions before), I was talking about the 'essentials' in evaluating hay quality.
Simply put, being free is NO arbiter of quality
RFV is the #1 number used in hay quality evaluation. Some labs are going to RFQ - but it is essentially the same number adjusted a little more for grass and not alfalfa. Your statement was "This is not good quality hay!" This hay would be a #2 hay on the Grading Scale established by the American Forage and Grassland Council - out of 6 levels(Prime, 1,2,3,4,5). If you want a higher rfv for the alpacas - fine! If you want to suggest an ideal range for alpacas - fine! That hay is not in any way shape or fashion prime hay, but is isn't "not good quality hay".
Free is never an indicator of quality nor is cheap! |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2009 : 12:03:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rgoss1
When I've asked suppliers if they test their hay, they always tell me that testing is pointless unless you're going to have every bale tested. According to them, even within the same field, the soil can differ enough to impact what is grown.
For those of you who know hay, does this make sense?
Most are too cheap to test their hay - or they claim they are innacurate as they reveal the truth that they don't wish to acknowledge. Yes you can rig tests, but a sample is just that a sample. If you pull a sample plug from 15 bales randomly out of a lot that contains 50 bales, you have a good represantation of that hay. If you don't test the hay, you essentially have someones best guess on what the hay is - and their guess is not worth much. We pull 2-3 samples per week! It amazes me how many times I will guess wrong when we look at as much hay as we do. Guessing just don't work! |
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Mary Jane
924 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2009 : 12:53:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by rgoss1
When I've asked suppliers if they test their hay, they always tell me that testing is pointless unless you're going to have every bale tested. According to them, even within the same field, the soil can differ enough to impact what is grown.
For those of you who know hay, does this make sense?
thanks
Roxanne Goss
Lands End Alpacas LLC
Vermilion, Ohio
gossr@roadrunner.com 440-225-4138
When testing hay, you should pull a little from as many bales as possible to get a good cross sampling of the lot. Is this going to tell you what is in each and every individual bale? No. Will it give you a good idea of the total nutrition available in all the hay lot? Yes. Your alpacas will get a little of each bale you give them, just like you have done with your sampling, so the nutrition they consume evens out. Is it better than purchasing a supply of hay and finding out later that it doesn't fit your needs? Yes. A prime example is when we needed about 30 bales this early spring just to 'pad' our supply until ours was ready. We went to look at some that a supplier had left from his last year's cutting. Looked great--green, leafy, weed free orchard grass. Because it was from a different supplier than we normally purchase from and last year's crop, I opted to test it before buying. It's a good thing I did because the protein level came back 8--too low for our use. I would have wasted our money.
Land of Legends Alpacas
2653 Swans Road
Newark, OH 43055
(740)345-2199
www.alpacanation.com/landoflegends.asp |
Edited by - Mary Jane on 10/23/2009 12:54:21 PM |
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LibertyWool
7 Posts |
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Ian Watt
633 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2009 : 3:30:28 PM
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In looking at the way RFV and RFQ values are determined, there are some, for me, striking limitations to alpaca breeders and growers.
The whole concept of these values has no component for protein and is based solely in fiber.
It is also designed for ruminants (namely dairy cattle it seems) where fiber content and digestibility are considered very important and where protein is often supplied by way of supplemental feeds. I would suggest that alpaca grwoers are far better served feeding protein through hay than through grain-based supplemental feeds.
It also assumes that hay/haylages have a consumption rate of 1.2% (1.2lbs/100lb bodyweight) which is somewhat lower than for alpacas - on my farm, males eat, on average, 3.5lb of good quality grass hay per day on feedlot conditions with no supplemental feed and averaging a 3 bodyscore (1 - 5 range) over a year.
I would there fore suggest that assessing hay on the CP, TDN and C:P figures is still a better evaluation standard than RFV or RFQ values.
Regards
Ian Watt
Alpaca Consulting USA
www.alpacaconsultingUSA.com
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2009 : 4:55:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Watt
The whole concept of these values has no component for protein and is based solely in fiber.
It is also designed for ruminants (namely dairy cattle it seems) where fiber content and digestibility are considered very important and where protein is often supplied by way of supplemental feeds. I would suggest that alpaca grwoers are far better served feeding protein through hay than through grain-based supplemental feeds.
I would there fore suggest that assessing hay on the CP, TDN and C:P figures is still a better evaluation standard than RFV or RFQ values.
Are alpacas not ruminants?
In your previous post, you suggested feeding oats to supplement this hay. Why? I just pulled a sample of some hay we have here 13.4 cp, 107 rfv, 1.00 Mcal/lb. (btw this is a t/a) Oats are 11.5 cp and 1.23 Mcal/lb. (Corn fwiw, 8.3cp and 1.55 Mcal/lb.) The supplemental feed you suggested feeding has less protein than the hay! Thus the only way you are benefiting is in the energy available to the ruminant - you are not adding a protein supplement. So if you want to supplement energy to the animal, why not increase the "relative feed value" of the hay? Otherwise, your suggestion to feed oats is incorrect and you should have been adding alfalfa pellets, soybean meal, or some other protein enhancer.
Additionally, "In some plants which have highly lignified cell walls, much of the crude protein may be unavailable to the animal." (Southern Forages 2nd ed) This is the main reason the adf and ndf numbers (the main components of rfv) are so important. Protein is a poor indicator of hay quality; howbeit a very traditional indicator. |
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rgoss1
193 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2009 : 11:12:56 PM
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Where are you sending your hay to be tested? What is the average cost? thanks
Roxanne Goss
Lands End Alpacas LLC
Vermilion, Ohio
gossr@roadrunner.com 440-225-4138 |
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production acres
14 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2009 : 08:49:59 AM
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Dairy One Ithaca, NY
800-496-3344
www.dairyone.com
they also operate as Equi-Analytical for horse oriented people
basic test is $16
from mailing the test - takes about 3 days for results |
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BrianH
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2009 : 10:13:26 AM
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I sent mine to www.foragelab.com for the testing, I had them run a NIR 2 test w/wet chemistry it was $ 22.50, they had the test done and results posted the day they received my sample. BTW I did send the test results off to a very well respected Alpaca vet and he gave his blessings "There will be a little wastage to it but I think it will work fine. Yes, the Calcium-Phosphorus ratio is 4 to 1 but if you give the pregnant mothers a good alpaca supplement especially in the last 4 months of gestation and get the crias started by 4 weeks of age on a vitamin D paste at 1000 IU's /# of body weight every 10-14 days, you should not have crooked legs.
Go for it. The price is right."
Brian & Karley Houchin
Houchin Family Alpacas
Heyworth, IL
www.HouchinFamilyAlpacas.com
HouchinFamilyAlpacas@verizon.net |
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Hay Test Results
