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 3. Birthing & Neonatal Care
 Bottle Baby not taking bottle anymore
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  11:26:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a 1.5 month old male that has been great at taking his bottle(his mom rejected him from day of birth) up to now. He has been fed the following formula and has steadily increased in weight, now up to 32. lbs: 1/3rd whole milk, 1/3 goats milk, 1/3rd half and half. Now he refuses to take the bottle and puts up a fight. I am thinking that he may be eating grass(there is plenty of it) and hay as well. He is playing with the other crias, and seems to be in great shape, but since this is my first experience with a bottle baby, I am a bit concerned that he is not wanting his bottle at this stage. We are feeding him(or attempting to) every four hours. Any help would be appreciated. He had Bo-Se and his CDT shots before I got him(He came from a farm that could not deal with the bottle feeding due to job hours), and I gave him his Ivermectin on herd health day as well. I moved him to the co-owner's farm last week, so I am thinking that maybe changing farms twice within two weeks, might not be good, but he was drinking fine at the other farm until today.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533

pawsnpaca

373 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  12:40:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any chance he's snitching off one of the other mommas?

Lisa Cadieux
Wit's End Farm Alpacas
Rochester, NH
603-335-2831
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  12:49:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The girls I had here that had crias would not let him nurse, I will check to see if he is with a nursing one at the other farm that might let him nurse off her. I had no trouble getting him to nurse from the bottle while he was on my farm, but he also had never nursed from his mom. His mom had a C-section because he was a breech baby, so all he knows is a bottle. When he was at my farm, he came running as soon as he saw with coming with a bottle. At the farm where has been for the past week, he is running with other crias and they have to try to catch him to feed him. I am waiting to hear back how his weight is today. They took his temperature and it was normal, and so far, he appears to be acting normal.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  2:33:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Christiane,
If I understand you correctly, he drank fine at your place but won't at the new farm? Well, in my experience, a bottle baby is now the bottle provider's cria, to all intents and purposes. Even if they are kept with the herd {and they should be unless terribly physically challenged...}they know and get used to you. These new folks need to stop forcing him and try to keep offering it. Maybe you could visit and feed him a few times with them gradually getting closer and then holding the bottle? If it is too far away then they need to put a creep feeder up with alpaca grain and alfalfa for him. It goes without saying, that this creep must be in the middle of the dam herd feeding action. Even better if other kids go in too...

He is used to your voice, smell, etc. His weight is good likely because you fed him well, without grain or bottles at the new place, will he keep putting on weight or even maintain?

Goodluck!

Amanda Schwab
Little Wing Farm
6327 Jefferson Mill Rd.
Scottsville, VA. 24590
#434 286 3931
littlewng@mac.com
www.alpacalove.com
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bobvicki

2967 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  2:44:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My advice from a vet/breeder 10 years ago was to wean the bottle baby as soon as possible, like 2 months of age.

My experience is that they do start eating grass and grain earlier because unlike nursing they can only get the bottle when you bring it rather than just sipping a quick nip here and there when desired.

I would have the people watch his weight, continue to offer the bottle if he gets hungry enough to want it. By the way are they using your bottle and nipple or are they using something else?

Bob

Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
10371 N 2210 Road
Clinton, Oklahoma 73601
641-831-3576
alpaca@htswireless.com
www.alpacanation.com/suriland.asp
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  5:54:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just spoke to my co-owner where the cria now is, and they are getting some Gastro Guard because their vet thought he might have an ulcer due to the change in farm. I also thought it might be the stress of the change that is causing this, and if he does not drink from his bottle tomorrow, I will go and get him. It is a two and a half hour drive, but then I would take him straight to my vet and have him look at him to see if there is anything else going on. I gave them the formula and the bottles so that everything would be the same food wise, but so far, he has only taken 7 ounces for the day. My friend has a thought that they should drink 15% of their body weight each day and he has lost two pounds since they got him from me, although at first, he was gaining. He was at 28.2 lbs when I brought him on the 17th, gained up to 32 lbs and now has lost two pounds. Can crias get parasites that early? He did get some colostrum from his dam because the owners of the dam milked her out and fed that to him. He was a breech, so they had their vet do a C-section, and mom refused to nurse him, so they bottle fed him with the formula they then gave to me when I got him. I got him on the 11th of July and he kept putting on weight consistently while he was here with me. He got along well with the other two crias here and was active, and would come running when he saw me coming with the bottle. I did notice that my cria that was born on the 8th of July is nibbling on grass, so maybe he was nibbling on grass too, and did not feel hungry when they tried to feed him. However, the weight loss concerns us both. If he is not taking his bottle by morning, I will go and get him and take him to my vet before bringing him to my farm.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  8:50:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Christiane,

Oh how I know bottle kids are a pain {even the kind that come running when you call, you are so tied down to the feedings for a time} but so much easier than vet bills, ulcers {possibly from the forced handling and the move...}, worry {yours} and if you are like me, sleepless nights...

I think you are doing the right thing, just go get him and bring him home and go back to your formula and bottle routine. A B Complex shot and a 3cc of whole fat plain yogurt would help too. As long as he doesn't have a fever and yes, crias can get parasites especially from stress and being moved around...So a fecal is in order, hopefully no EMac or standard coccidia which can bloom if he is stressed. and if it is present at your farm or the new farm.

If he rallies and gets back quickly to his routine {and he should if nothing else is up...} then get him on grain. I start bottle kids at 2 weeks old on grain and have never had a problem. I just stick a tiny pellet in thier mouth {I use Blue Seal Evans formulated Alpaca Maintenance} every time I walk outside or if they are way out on pasture, I do it at feed times. They spit it out but after a few days they start to suck and chew it, just one at a time. In a week they are nibbling grain. I keep bottling but cut back VERY gradually as they really start chowing the grain.

Amanda Schwab
Little Wing Farm
6327 Jefferson Mill Rd.
Scottsville, VA. 24590
littlewng@mac.com
www.alpacalove.com
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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  9:08:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PS

Don't change your formula for him, he was doing well and drinking well on that for you!

However can I ask why you are using two different kinds of protein? Goat milk is not the same as cow milk, at all. I use goat milk if I have a premie or dismature kid that needs help {gastric ally not as developed as a full term cria...} but all other crias get good old grocery store Vitamin D fortified whole cow milk. I personally wouldn't mix the two...

Are there goat folks who can chime in here? Isn't goat milk, like Beta protein and cow is something else? Or do I have that backwards or what?

Amanda Schwab
Little Wing Farm
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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  9:13:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Last PSS:}

I also don't use half and half unless they need a serious, life saving calorie boost. It is rich compared to alpaca milk...just whole cow unless they are a special case, for me anyway.

Goodluck, hope he gets back on track with you at your place!
Amanda
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2013 :  10:23:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Amanda, I am feeding him this formula because that is what the farm gave him from which I got him. This breeder has been raising alpacas for a long time and has a well established farm with some very high end animals at her farm, with many championships. She has had plenty of experience with bottle babies, so I value her expertise, and the vet she uses is also known and widely respected in Ohio and other states as well. I will be picking him up tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the idea of the B-Complex, and I will try that on him tomorrow. I have some of that on hand all the time. I also have Thiamine here that I got from my vet a few months ago. I actually don't find feeding a bottle baby that much of a pain. The only difficult part is getting up in the middle of the night, but when he was here, that did not take long to do, and I was back in bed before I knew it. I hope I can get him back on his schedule--he is an awesome cria with fiber like I have never seen.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  04:03:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Christiane,

I only mentioned mixing the proteins because I would worry about possibly the need for Probios {yogurt} more often to avoid tummy upsets. I have also used half and half and it also can cause tummy upsets {diahrea} if not used very cautiously so I thought, since new breeders sometimes read these posts, not just experienced farmers, that I would share my experiences using those things you mention in your formula.

I am trying to offer suggestions to you since you reached out for help with your cria on the AN forum. Please don't get defensive if my {16 years worth} of experiences don't jive with yours or your breeder friend.



Amanda Schwab
Little Wing Farm
6327 Jefferson Mill Rd.
Scottsville, VA. 24590
#434 286 3931
littlewng@mac.com
www.alpacalove.com

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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  04:57:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Amanda,

I was not being defensive, just stated what I know, and that is , by far not everything. I was going by this formula because that is what has apparently worked on this farm. I know yoghurt is good for them, I have used it for years with my dogs, and I believe it is yoghurt that saved the life of one of my champions when he was a pup and nobody could figure out what was wrong with him. He lived to be almost thirteen. Thank you so much for all of your help, it is greatly appreciated. There is so much to learn about these cuddly critters, and so little is still known about them.

I don't know much about goat's milk, but I have always heard that that is what one should feed crias if the mom has no or little milk. I always have a can of that on hand and just learned from the breeder of this cria that Wal-Mart carries it in quart containers and it is much cheaper than the canned kind. I hate to go to Wal-Mart because they don't support U.S.A. made products, but I guess it is good for some things. I do know of a goat person that lives in the area who is willing to sell me some of her milk and it is a lot cheaper, but it is further for me to drive, so probably would even out as far as price is concerned. Whole milk would be even cheaper to feed if he would take it.

I am picking him up today and will take him straight to my vet for a check -up. Thanks again for all your help.

I just received a call from the co-owner and she thinks he has to go to Ohio State because he is not drinking at all. I am driving up there, picking him up and taking him to OSU now.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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mitchellj

33 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  06:45:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good morning, we also have a bottle baby on our farm, mom has milk just not enough. Our vet's formula is 2 cup whole milk, 1 cup goat milk, 1 cup half and half and 3 teaspoon plain yogurt. Kody was born on 6/27 at 10.7 pounds (our smallest to date) and was 17.1 this morning. He is nibbling on pasture grass and hay with his buddies but has not entertain grain yet. We are now waiting to see him drink water. Kody is starting to play with the bottle a little more and we are hoping that maybe mom's milk is coming in more. ( we had a boarder and was bottle feeding her cria for approx. 5 weeks and then one day...mom took over so we never give up hope that one morning mom will have enough to sustain this little guy.) For now we are thankful that she is an extremely great mom and knows we are just helping her take care of him. The other part that is nice, there are 4 people here that feed Kody at various times and when he fights everyone else, I am for whatever reason able to get him to take his bottle.

Christine adding yogurt may be the ticket to your formula, I also agree with bringing him back to you, all he knows is you as his food source, and yes they learn quickly but he is still only 2 months old.

Congrats Christine on a great job, these crias were given life and thank goodness you care enough!

Joy Mitchell
M-R Alpacas Ranch Inc.
440-759-9544
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  10:37:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The little guy is at Ohio State Vet hospital this morning and I am waiting to hear what the problem is. They are currently thinking one of two things: either he has an ulcer, or he has a fur ball blockage. He has been known to nibble on the other alpacas' fleece, but we had plastic toys up for him to nibble on. However, you can only watch him so long, and he may have been doing that when nobody was there. I am hoping it is the first, but in any case, this guy is worth saving. He has the most incredible fleece I have ever seen on an alpaca. My co-owner, where the cria has been for over a week, is much closer to OSU than I am, so they took him in this morning at six am, saving me a long trip, and getting him there much sooner.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  12:05:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just got sort of an update on our little cria at OSU from my co-owern . It appears that he has sores all over in his mouth and that may be what is causing him not to want to drink. I have no clue about this or what may have caused this. OSU is doing an investigation of this throat to see if it goes down there as well. Has anyone ever had this, and do you know how it was resolved, or if it was resolved? Really strange. They are giving him IV fluids because hasn't drunk anything. They think he may have had that for two or three weeks.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  7:03:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I purchased a female from WA. but had to wait for her delivery because the farm was quarantined by their own vet while visting to do my CV for travel to my farm. A couple of their cria {I bought a prego female} had sores in and on their mouths. It was Hoof and Mouth and is highly contagious hence the quarantine. i am NOT saying that is what this is! but lesions in the mouth is a symptom. Most mature alpacas recover just fine but the trouble is the cria, who stop nursing due to pain in the mouth. Some dams get it on their udders {how crias pick it up} and then refuse to nurse the cria. It is also possible for people to contract it...

So hopefully that isn't what this is...maybe it is some immune disorder or a weird reaction to something in the new pasture?

The only other time I have witnessed sores {however were black blood blisters though...} was after one of my female alpacas ate part of a Blister Beetle in some Alfalfa Hay I got from another state without checking it thoruoghly on a tarp before feeding it out. It had alfalfa blooms, very attractive to Blister Beetles I now know. The cria {dam ate this while her cria was in utero} had the black blood blisters inside his mouth and throat, so swallowing was a problemm I have wriiten about this incident on my AN site under my herdsire Eggnog if anyone wants more info.

Amanda Schwab
Little Wing afrm
6327 Jefferson Mill Rd.
Scottsville, VA. 24590
#434 286 3931
littlewng@mac.com
www.alpacalove.com
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  9:42:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They scoped his neck and he had abrasions there as well as in his mough, so it is no wonder he did not want to take the bottle. OSU seems to think that he must have nibbled on something that caused it. He is doing well, and they have him on IV so that he gets fluids and some nutrition. Fecals are normal, no temperature and he is active. My friends brought one of their young females with him so that he would have a buddy there. OSU did not mention hoof and mouth, and I believe it is rare in alpacas. They seem to think that he will be ok, and gave him sulfracate(sp.?) to help heal the ulcers. He does not have ulcers anywhere else, so it does not seem to be stress related. My friends have very nice pasture, and they will check that to see if there is anything there that he could have injested. I know that he nibbles on stuff, so he may have done so on something that was not so good for him. He is an awesome animal, with absolutely incredible fleece, and we really want this guy to get better.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2013 :  9:46:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I forgot to mention that the vet at OSU seemed to think at first that his formula may have been too hot and that is how the got the abrasions, but I know that I always tested the warmth of the formula on my wrist, just like you do for a baby, and my co-owner has fed many bottle babies, raising her dogs, as well as alpacas, so that can't be a cause of the abrasion, and I told the vet that. So we assume that he ate something that caused the abrasions.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2013 :  5:11:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our young boy will be going home tomorrow. Keeping fingers crossed.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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delphi

180 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2013 :  12:21:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just FYI -
Foot and Mouth disease has not been diagnosed in the US since 1929.
It is a very very bad disease in terms of livestock - as the government would require destruction of any herds that had it or even came close to having it.

So not a concern - we would hope!

There are other contagious diseases that cause mouth sores - like "orf" virus -
or vesicular stomatitis (another big deal to the state vet that would require quarantine by law I believe) - - -
perhaps it was something like that.

Glad this little cria is doing OK and has a good shot at recovery!


Linda

Linda Bat
Delphi Alpacas
Coaldale, CO
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mitchellj

33 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2013 :  07:08:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Christine that is wonderful news, is he coming home to you or the co-owners? So happy to hear a positive story!

Keep us posted!

Joy Mitchell
M-R Alpacas Ranch Inc
Wakeman, OH
440-759-9544
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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2013 :  07:54:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
JUST an FYI for you, Columbia Gorgeous Farm {prefix CGA} was quarantined the year before Jeanette got out of business. The problem is, no one ever comes forward when their farm is exposed. I find it interesting, and worrisome that you think that there have been no cases since 1929. I guess the government is NOT always contacted by the owners or the vets... I suppose it is like BVD, some farms came forward and some didn't...

It generally is harbored in cool and damp weather and in alpacas, there is a fever presented as well as sores. have a fever. This is the reason Christiane's vet didn't check for it, the cria had no fever.

Amanda Schwab
Little Wing Farm
6327 Jefferson Mill Rd.
Scottsville, VA. 24590
#434 286 3931
littlewng@mac.com
www.alpacalove.com


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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2013 :  08:43:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe I need to clarify this topic more...

Yes, in alpacas and humans it is called ORF. Alpacas don't seem susceptible to the cloven hoofed FMD {Foot and Mouth Disease} version with lameness. However, it is treated and {supposedly} quarantined just like the full blown FMD that involves feet and mouths. But it is not always reported. I don't think we are having an epidemic but it is here, now, and has been for as long as I have been doing Camelids, just like BVD and ARDS.

It can be passed to people and is highly contagious. So where suspect, wear gloves, and bleach tools, clothing....watch for sores on and in mouths. In cria and on udders it can have devastating results if not caught. Some researchers feel an auto immune disorder can make certain individuals more susceptible.

Amanda Schwab
Little Wing Farm
6327 Jefferson Mill Rd.
Scottsville, VA. 24590
#434 286 3931
littlewng@mac.com
www.alpacalove.com

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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2013 :  11:18:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our bottle baby is on his way back to my co-owner's farm, thanks to the great work at OSU. We both love his super personality and amazing fleece, and the folks taking care of him at OSU were smitten by him as well. He got the royal treatment, was taken for walks(he is halter trained) and even got to visit with the people in the offices.

Yesterday he downed 14 oz at one sitting, so he is on the mend and on his way home at the moment. We will continue giving him the ulcer meds for a while, but are just so glad that he appears to be ok.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-2533
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littlewing

151 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2013 :  12:31:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great news.

Amanda Schwab
Little Wing farm
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delphi

180 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2013 :  5:36:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So glad to hear the cria is doing so well -
they did a great job, you got him to the right place!

And thank you for clearing up the FMD topic Amanda - you are right -
Orf, (soremouth, or contagious pustular dermatitis), is caused by a parapox virus. Orf is not uncommon in the US and is easy to confuse with munge in paca babies. But it can cause painful mouths and make babies stop nursing, and spread to teats just as you said. It's not a reportable disease - meaning the state doesn't need to know about it.

FMD is caused by a Picornavirus, and the US is considered FMD free.

Vesicular stomatitis is another reportable virus - and it does occur in the US. My vet says one of the reasons they are concerned about it and want it reported, is that it is so similar in symptoms to FMD. They want to be certain the US stays FMD free.

Confusing - but thank you for the reminder - orf is around - and as you said - people can get it too. That's good advice for folks to keep in mind.

Linda Bat
Coaldale, CO

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