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 Should AN use AOBA show colors or ARI colors?
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Customer Service

208 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2008 :  09:44:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Customer Service's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Should AlpacaNation update its color choices for alpaca listings to match the AOBA Show colors (which would include Indefinite Light and Dark), or should we continue to use the color choices used by ARI on the alpaca certificates?

Sue Ives

134 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2008 :  1:20:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Sue Ives's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Why not both?

Sue Ives
Alpacas of Nottingham Hollow
Woodford, VA
ives@alpacasofnottinghamhollow.com
www.alpacanation.com/nottinghamhollow.asp
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APacaFunFarm

1193 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2008 :  1:37:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The problem with using AOBA show colors is that they have frequently changed over the past few years.

Neil

A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
www.apacafunfarm.com
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jillmcm

3204 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2008 :  6:01:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit jillmcm's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I agree that we should have the option to use both color definitions.

Jill McElderry-Maxwell
Bag End Suri Alpacas of Maine - ¡BESAME!
Benton, ME
(207) 453-0109
bagendsuris@roadrunner.com
http://www.alpacanation.com/bagendsuri.asp
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travis

75 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2008 :  7:27:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit travis's Homepage  Send travis an AOL message  Reply with Quote
ARI.

Not everyone is a member of AOBA.


Travis Winkler
Alpacas of the Bluegrass, LLC
La Grange, KY
www.alpacasofthebluegrass.com
www.alpacanation.com/bluegrass.asp
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MoonlitAlpacas

76 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2008 :  11:38:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit MoonlitAlpacas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
AOBA show colors are at the discretion of the color checker - So they do not always represent the true color of the animal. I have moved up and down the color spectrum at shows depending on lighting and opinion. ARI is the registering body. We should all remember that while it is important for us as sellers to be as open and honest about our animals and provide information - It is just as important for as as buyers to do our homework that includes checking on color, ribbons, the # in class etc. at shows.

Carol

The Tillman Family
Cass, Carol, Kira Sage & Emery Kate

Moonlit Alpacas
Join The Family!
1-800-970-2170
2170 Rte 125
Cornwall, VT 05753

MoonlitAlpacas@cox.net
www.MoonlitAlpacas.com
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Benchmark

3 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  12:31:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Benchmark's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi All,

I think the poll question isn't quite clear.

I took it to ask if the ARI Color Chart should be updated to include Indefinite Lights and Indefinite Darks.

I think it would be great to have them listed on the color chart and in the registry as there are many indefinites out there, however, they are often registered as solids.

I feel that an updated ARI color chart would provide more accurate report in the registry and of the colors being produced in the industry.

I have Lights (white, beige, lf) with dark brown and black fibers running through. They don't have enough to be a rose gray -- but the fact that they have them -- they shouldn't be judged against solid animals. It also tells me as a breeder -- that these guys offer a great deal more as far as color because I know the colors they cover.

Same goes for the Indefinite darks. Knowing that a black has white running through it would help a great deal when looking to purchase, matching up a breeding or searching the registry for offspring produced.

I seek out these animals all the time as they are value added in our program. I would love to be able to run searches and include them. But then again, I would also like to have Maroon added to the chart. That is another color I search for, but unfortunately - we don't have accurate records in the registry to know who is producing it - or if they are just producing brown.

I would also like to see AN updated with the colors.

My 2 cents

Barrie Lynn


Barrie Lynn Wood
Benchmark Alpacas at the Tin Roof Ranch
Goodrich, MI 48438
248-627-9863
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pawsnpaca

373 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  12:56:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with Barrie Lynn, but I'd like to put another spin on it (or maybe it's the same spin put a different way).

AN is not a registering body nor a show forum. It is a marketing venue. The point is to make it easy to match up buyers and sellers. If I'm looking for an indefinite dark animal, I'd really rather not plow through all the browns, blacks, bayblacks, grays and rose grays trying to determine through discriptions and photos if the animal is really an indefinite dark. Besides, my search is only as good as the person who entered the information. I know some people who list their animals as, say, medium fawn because that's the color the animal looked as a cria when they registered them with ARI. Should that animal continue to be listed as medium fawn on AN, even though at the first shearing it became clear the animal was actually a medium brown? If I'm looking for this animal I'll never find her if she's listed under medium fawn! I know another animal who was registered with ARI as a dark rose gray and showed in the show ring as a dark rose gray, a multi, a bay black, a silver gray, AND an ID. What should the owner be listing this animal as on AN?? My answer would be - either their best guess OR the color they feel is most marketable!

My point is, who says we have to be in-line with either AOBA OR ARI? If the point is to facilitate marketing, maybe we should add not only ID and IL, but maroon, "Black point grays", and animals with solid blankets but white markings! Whatever it takes to best match buyers and sellers I say!

Just food for thought!

Lisa Cadieux
Wit's End Farm Alpacas
Rochester, NH
603-335-2831

Edited by - pawsnpaca on 08/06/2008 1:51:36 PM
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APacaFunFarm

1193 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  2:06:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lisa and Barrie Lynn,

Indefinite has been present in the AOBA show division for what, 3 years? Are we sure this color class will exist as time goes by (remember "roans")?

As now defined, "indefinite" includes "contaminated" fleeces, roans, black headed roans, harlequin grays, and others.

I'm not suggesting AN couldn't add these color classes, just that if it happens AN will likely have to reconfigure as definitions change.

Best regards,

Neil

A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
www.apacafunfarm.com
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allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  2:15:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll agree with Neil. AOBA can and does change color classes quite often. I did a keyword search for the term indefinite on AN, came up with 107 matches. Search the word roan, 143 matches. Even harlequin, 17 matches.
I'll also say that Travis makes the best argument, not all buyers are AOBA members

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Mañana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
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pawsnpaca

373 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  3:22:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil - I'm not trying to be contentious but I think you missed my point. I don't particularly care what AOBA or ARI "recognizes". I just want to be able to find the animals I'm interested in buying on AN. Since I like IDs, roans, black point grays, etc., I'm just looking at anything that would make it easier for me to find these animals.

As I said in my original post, I don't personally see why we need to follow AOBA or ARI color designations at all. If everyone knows and agrees on what "maroon" is (or ID or roan or...), then why shouldn't we be able to search on that in AN? I know you can find some of these with a key word search, but I sometimes find that a lot more cumbersome then using the regular search parameters. Just looking for ways to simplify my searches!

OK, I've expressed and clarified my personal opinion and will bow out now - majority will rule and it's not the first time I've been in a minority...

Lisa Cadieux
Wit's End Farm Alpacas
Rochester, NH
603-335-2831
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allie

82 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  4:00:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
perhaps another topic here...

but the color cards are not uniform either, which can generate differences at color checking at different shows. Occurs because they are made from real fiber, not all off the same alpaca at the same time.

Would it be possible for them to be more like paint chips?

Allie

Allie Angott
Alpaca Outback
Sharpsville, PA
Specializing in the Finest Fleece
www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=10821
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Heidi Christensen

4211 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  4:42:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Heidi Christensen's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Another different topic.

I have always wished it was possible to search just the animal's description in the keyword searches. That way, if I want to search for a maroon animal, or whatever keyword, I can do a keyword search, and get that word for just the animal in question, not its parents, or service sire, or whatever. Of course, that word would have to be in the write up.

I don't know what would be easiest for AN to re-configure when things change, but I would think there has to be a way to make it easier to do searches. I remember finding many animals with white on them when I was looking for a solid color. But I think I have done the same with my animals with white, because I don't consider them "patterned" if they have some white on their face.

Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm
Graham, Wa
(253) 846-2168
http://alpacanation.com/wingnutfarm.asp
http://wingnut-alpacas.com
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Cheryl

233 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2008 :  7:50:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Cheryl's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Having volunteered as a color checker at several shows, and having been superintendent of OABA's fleece show for three years now, I can tell you that many folks don't have a clue what color their animals are. Not intended to be rude, just noting that many people still don't realize that the color at the roots matters, not the tips. Nor does it matter what color the parents or siblings are, nor does it matter what color you wish your alpaca was or what color it was when it was born.... (Just to name a few interesting explanations I've heard).

What we need is a more consistent definition of colors and patterns (whatever that may end up being), that doesn't keep changing. Interesting to note, NOT ONE PERSON registered an ID or IL fleece last year, but sure enough we had some. As another example, try searching for patterned animals on AN. Many alpacas are listed as patterned simply because they have a single marking on their head. That's not my definition of a true pattern, but it is for others. Bottom line is, AN, ARI, and the show division can change categories and choices all they want but until sellers can agree on AND recognize the definitions, and then correctly list their alpacas, we'll all continue to wade through animals that don't fit the bill, and we'll continue to miss out on ones that might have fit had we been able to find them.

Cheryl Ross
Mount Ampato Alpacas
Brookville, OH
937-770-1120
cheryl@mtampato.com
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Christiane

2830 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2008 :  09:19:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I vote for neither. I have an animal that I think is a maroon, but according to either of those registries, there is no such color. Same for the roans, etc. It would be good to have a lot of color options beyond the standard AOBA/ARI ones.

Christiane Rudolf
Tanglewood Farm
19741 Victory Lane
Fayetteville, Ohio 45118
(513) 875-3739
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APacaFunFarm

1193 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2008 :  8:48:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Christiane

I vote for neither. I have an animal that I think is a maroon, but according to either of those registries, there is no such color. Same for the roans, etc. It would be good to have a lot of color options beyond the standard AOBA/ARI ones.
Christiane Rudolf



Maroon was an ARI color in the 4th rendition of the ARI color chart. ARI colors have been constant for, what?, 8 years now?

Colors from either organization fall short of the mark despite their obvious usefulness. Some colors, such as maroon, are not mentioned. Others colors, such as beige and fawn, are split apart for no apparent reason (genetically speaking anyway). Patterns (tuxedo gray, black headed roan, harlequin gray, appaloosa) are lumped or split into multiple AOBA color divisions.

Color designation is anything but easy. Personally I prefer fewer color categories (white, fawn, brown, black, gray, other patterns). After viewing the animal's picture or seeing that animal in person I subcategorize from there. Having said that I'll be happy with any consistent system.

Lisa, I didn't miss your point, nor did I find your comments the least bit contentious. You and I have exactly the same goal. The problem I have is that the definitions of indefinite, gray, and others colors/patterns are not clear and often overlap.

Best regards,

Neil


A Paca Fun Farm
Dickerson,MD
www.apacafunfarm.com
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Customer Service

208 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2008 :  11:33:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Customer Service's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thank you all so much for voting and for your feedback. I want to again clarify the reason for this poll; the need for keeping consistent with industry standards. AlpacaNation is not a registry, nor do we present ourselves to be. But, on the same hand, many in the alpaca industry depend on AlpacaNation for their buying, selling and searching needs (and thank you for that!). That being said, we want to keep our site as up to date and as in line with industry standards set by both ARI and AOBA as possible; in order to keep the information consistent.

After reviewing the poll results and feedback we have decided to keep our color combinations as they are (pulled from ARI sanctioned colors). We appreciate each and every comment, question and spin on the topic that was presented.

Warm regards,
Kristy Adams
AlpacaNation LLC
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