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 4. Breeding and Genetics
 Trouble breeding a maiden
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thesilversuri

277 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  6:31:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit thesilversuri's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello,
I have a 2 year old maiden that I bred the other day. Here is the thing, violently opposed the breeding. After time, she finally relented. I exposed her to three different males and have been putting her in the company of males for three months. This last time she was forced to cush. The male latched on for ten minutes.
Just prior to the conclusion her, he seemed to slip out. It was at that time that I" think" I noticed that he wasn't fully penetrating. Although he may have been for the previous nine minutes. Assuming for a moment that there was full penetration, how the heck will I be able to tell if she is pregnant from a spit test? I had to take a shower after the breeding, because I was covered with spit. I was considering bring out a Vet to check to see if she is partially or fully open. Outside of that option, I would just wait seven days and try again. Folks, I could use a little help here. Please share your thoughts,
Scott

The Silver Suri
Scott & Christina Campanella
1185 West Street Road
West Chester Pa 19382

pinkertondan

626 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  8:02:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit pinkertondan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Scott,
Looks like you have a predictament.
One thing you could do, is pasture breed, instead of breeding every 7 days. That way, it should happen.
You also will want to call the vet out, and get an ultrasound done, sometime.
Hope that it works out!!! Maybe she's caught this time.
Sarah

The Pinkerton Tribe
Rockford Bay Ranch
14701 S. Heritage Dr.
Coeur d'Alene, ID 83814
www.rockfordbayalpacas.com
www.alpacanation.com/rockfordbay.asp
info@rockfordbayalpacas.com
(208)769-9999
Email me! I would love
to hear from you!

Edited by - pinkertondan on 06/09/2007 8:52:01 PM
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bobvicki

2967 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  8:39:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Scott,
Have your vet out or take her to the vet.
Start with an ultrasound and maybe a progesterone test. If your vet believes she is not pregnant and is sexually mature then you may want to treat for an infection by injection.

Or if the vet believes she is not PG then you might want to make up time by going all the way and treating with a uterine flush, and an estrumate shot to cycle her and then start all over.

Bob

Bob & Vicki Blodgett
Suri Land Alpaca Ranch
3288 Halter Avenue
Newton, Iowa 50208
641-831-3576
alpaca@iowatelecom.net
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stardustalpacas

512 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2007 :  10:18:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit stardustalpacas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I would definitely call the vet. We had a girl here for breeding and she totally refused any male. She was a maiden. Her external genitalia looked almost normal but not completely. When the vet came out, he did a n ultrasound and found that she had small ovaries, a normal uterus and her vaginal opening was too small. He called her a pseudo-hermaphrodite.
So, the owners ended up taking her to OSU to have her checked out a the hospital.

On the other hand, some girls do not want to breed until they are quite a bit older. We had a girl not ready to breed until she was 3 and then she still fought like crazy.

I would not recommend pasture breeding. There is no way to make sure that a breeding took place if you are not there to witness it. We only breed in the stall so we have the actual date they were bred, are able to check for penetration and know when to recheck. Use the most determined, most experienced male.

Good luck!

Stephanie

Stephanie Zeleny
Stardust Alpacas
Creswell, OR
541.895.0964
stardustalpacas@yahoo.com
http://homepage.mac.com/stardustalpacas/
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Heidi Christensen

4211 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2007 :  10:46:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Heidi Christensen's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just because you observe a breeding doesn't mean fertilization took place. You know a pasture breeding took place the same way you know if a hand breeding "took" - spit testing and US.

I'm batting 1000 on pasture breedings, but two of my hand bred girls turned up open this spring. Such is animal breeding.

Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm
Graham, Wa
(253) 846-2168
http://alpacanation.com/wingnutfarm.asp
http://wingnut-alpacas.com
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pinkertondan

626 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2007 :  11:12:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit pinkertondan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Heidi,
That is exactly my point!!! For us, we got out there to breed our alpacas, around once a month!!! Only one got pregnant each time, out around 20!!!
Now, we pasture breed, and ALL of them are pregnant!!! (Confirmed by US)
Sarah

The Pinkerton Tribe
Rockford Bay Ranch
14701 S. Heritage Dr.
Coeur d'Alene, ID 83814
www.rockfordbayalpacas.com
www.alpacanation.com/rockfordbay.asp
info@rockfordbayalpacas.com
(208)769-9999
Email me! I would love
to hear from you!
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thesilversuri

277 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2007 :  3:37:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit thesilversuri's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I put her in with my male and she went crazy again. We didn't force her down and only had the male in with her for a minute. I needed to change my cloths afterwards, I was covered in green. She violently refuses the males. As far as I know she was only exposed four days ago, and no mistakes took place. The vet is going to check her tommorrow.I'm a bit concerned, but she is otherwise very healthy.
Scott

The Silver Suri
Scott & Christina Campanella
1185 West Street Road
West Chester Pa 19382
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2007 :  09:30:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Scott,

Another possibility may be an imperforate hymen. We had a girl who was very reluctant to breed and screamed at the males we brought to her. Even after our vet relaxed her hymen (and she had been bred and was 3 years old at that point) she was very unhappy about being bred, and spat throughout. She did become pregnant though, and we suspect she was reluctant to breed because initially it must have been painful for her. Since delivering her first cria, she has been no trouble to breed.

Jane.


www.thistledownalpacas.com
Ph: (804)-784-4837 Fax: (804)-784-4839

Edited by - janechristie on 06/16/2007 09:23:10 AM
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julieandken

749 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2007 :  7:25:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit julieandken's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Scott,
I agree with Stephanie. Are you sure that the male was latched on for 10 minutes. I have seen the same behavior in a male not yet completely detached and a female not yet ready. More importantly I have heard from people far more experienced than me who have suggested that it is not only weight and age that deternmine readiness.
I think a vet exam is in order. I don't have any feelings for or against pasture breeding but I do supervised breedings because I want to know who did what to whom, when they did it and how frequent. Having seen Walter Bravo's pictures of the trauma to the lining of the uterus after breeding, I won't let my females breed more often thance once a week.
Maybe your girl is trying to tell you something. I just got back from a seminar yesterday where Steve Hull suggested that you may be setting her up for reluctant future breedings if this is a traumatic experience. He and many in the audience suggested that a vet exam is hardly a great expense prior to any maiden breeding and they do it routinely.
I haven't been doing that myself, but at the very least I would check the hymen myself, at this point and see if there is an anatomical reason for her problem.
Regards,
Ken


Julie and Ken Rosenfeld, MD
Renaissance Ridge Alpacas
Mount Aukum, CA
www.renaissanceridgealpacas.com
530-620-7934
http://www.alpacanation.com/farmsandbreeders/03_viewfarm.asp?name=12721
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meadowsong

310 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2007 :  03:22:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Scott,
You might have your vet draw blood and do an estradiol reading. It will tell you if she is producing mature follicles. Ideally it should be between 20-30 before you breed her. You could expose her if she is at least around 10.

I have a friend with a maiden doing the same thing as yours is. When they checked her estradiol it was less than 1. They have had her at the breeding farm and expose her every couple of days but no luck. She isn't violently refusing but she won't cush and thankfully, the breeding farm won't force a breeding. I have a maiden that was two on 5/31. She was scheduled to go for a breeding a few weeks ago. Had the vet do an exam and everything looked good but her estradiol came back at 0.83. I decided not to even take her now. She is somewhat submissive so she may cush, but she would just be going through the motions. We will recheck her in the early fall and see where she is. We may need to wait until spring with her. I think some just develope slower.

Diane Pedrotte
Meadowsong Alpacas
Capac, MI
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thesilversuri

277 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2007 :  07:31:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit thesilversuri's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thank you Diane. I am waiting for the Vet report now. I let you know how it came out.
Scott

The Silver Suri
Scott & Christina Campanella
1185 West Street Road
West Chester Pa 19382
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stardustalpacas

512 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2007 :  02:25:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit stardustalpacas's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We actually get down on our hands and knees and pull the fleece away on the legs to check for penetration. If the male is inexperienced or is having trouble getting in position, we guide them to the right place until they get it. So, we actually do know when they have penetrated the female and check that she is wet after the breeding is complete.

This will not guarantee that either one is fertile at the moment, but it does guarantee that the DID breed and there was contact!

Stephanie



Stephanie Zeleny
Stardust Alpacas
Creswell, OR
541.895.0964
stardustalpacas@yahoo.com
http://homepage.mac.com/stardustalpacas/
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thesilversuri

277 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2007 :  07:18:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit thesilversuri's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Not only do I check, but I have to help him with target practice.
Well, the vet checked her Hymen and it was broken. He removed any remaining tissue.

I should have had him draw blood. I'll expose her again this weekend, however I don't know how to tell the difference between spitting because she is pregnant, or spitting because she is the Devil's spawn.
Scott

The Silver Suri
Scott & Christina Campanella
1185 West Street Road
West Chester Pa 19382
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2007 :  08:26:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Scott,

Ha! Didn't know there was a suri herdsire called the Devil

Some girls can be really hard to read with behavior-testing. One clue with a girl who always seem to reject, even when she is open, is a change in the manner of rejection. We've seen girls, especially maidens, go from standing indifferently, or screaming one week, to running or spitting the next, so pay particular attention to the behavior each time. We make notes of how each girl rejects - some run, some jump, some spit, some scream, some stand sideways and cluck. They are all different, and differences in the way each girl rejects over time can give you a clue about a change in status.

Another suggestion re your girl's spitting behavior - during behavior-testing we halter up each girl, and point their head away from the male, and away from us! Once we confirmed without doubt that our girl with the imperforate hymen was not pregnant, and her hymen was definitely open, and she was reproductively normal, and did not have a uterine infection, I sat on the floor holding her halter throughout the breeding, while she drooled spit down my arm for 20 minutes. Not fun, not pretty, but at least it wasn't in my eye, and she did get pregnant from that breeding. Now she is no problem at all to breed.

Jane.

www.thistledownalpacas.com
Ph: (804)-784-4837 Fax: (804)-784-4839

Edited by - janechristie on 06/15/2007 3:36:48 PM
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thesilversuri

277 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2007 :  4:15:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit thesilversuri's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks Jane,
I just wanted it to go well for her the first time. I didn't want a negative imprint on the experience. I suppose I can muscle her down each time, but I would prefer not to. Holding her against her will seems to be the greatest instigator to her anxiety.She spit, bucked, screamed, until we forced her down and she froze up. She was bred for ten minutes.It wasn't pretty and my heart was racing pretty good the whole time.
On day four after breeding we exposed her to the male, actually a more experienced test male. Now when I tell you she freaked out, I want to be clear. If she could, she would injure herself trying to jump the pen. She spit, bucked, screamed, but this time we did not force her, because it was only four days. Today is day eight and I will expose her again on day 9 or 10. My preference would have been days five and twelve, but alas, my work schedule doesn't always fit my Alpaca schedule.
Scott

The Silver Suri
Scott & Christina Campanella
1185 West Street Road
West Chester Pa 19382
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2007 :  7:24:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Scott,

Your girl may now have elevated progesterone from her breeding 4 days ago. Many girls will spit off within as little as 48 hours and can become pregnant from a 10 minute breeding. If so, it would not be a good idea to force her to breed again. A retained CL, which makes her believe that she is pregnant, is another possibility, or as Diane mentioned, she may simply not be ready to breed.

Our girl's problem was that it was initially painful for her to breed, so she was extremely reluctant to do it again. We knew from ultrasound and breeding frequency that she was not pregnant, she had been treated for a retained CL, checked for reproductive anomaly and uterine infection, and had previously had an imperforate hymen, which had to be relaxed, even after she had been bred. Our camelid vet finally concluded that because breeding must have been painful for her in the past, she was reluctant to breed again, but as the problem was no longer physical, she advised us to go ahead and breed her. It is not something we would routinely do, or would recommend anyone else do, without working with your vet to rule out all other possibilities!

Take care,

Jane.


www.thistledownalpacas.com
Ph: (804)-784-4837 Fax: (804)-784-4839
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pinkertondan

626 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2007 :  9:39:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit pinkertondan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Heather, I totally agree with you, don't force it!!!
Sarah

The Pinkerton Tribe
Rockford Bay Ranch
14701 S. Heritage Dr.
Coeur d'Alene, ID 83814
www.rockfordbayalpacas.com
www.alpacanation.com/rockfordbay.asp
info@rockfordbayalpacas.com
(208)769-9999
Email me! I would love
to hear from you!
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thesilversuri

277 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2007 :  10:10:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit thesilversuri's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello all,
Well, I allowed my male to visit with this troubled maiden.
The order of events:
I put maiden in the pen first.
Then added the male.
Both stood looking at me. No response from either.
Then I introduced a second maiden that he bred yesterday.
The orgle immediately began.
While watching there was some clucking and tail raised from the troubled girl.
I removed number two maiden(prevented penatration) and he focused his attention on said troubled girl.
She, being confined by the 10 x10 pen, ran laps.
If he caught her and mounted her, she would remain standing and spit the nice green stuff, at him, at me, at the world.
I made no attempt to restrain her.
After a minute of chase, I removed the male.
Today was her 10th day from her only, and forced, breeding.
I have no idea if she is pregnant or just a walking heart attack with four legs and nice fiber.
What to do?
I'll wait another week and behavior test her again, after that an ultra sound. If she is not bred, I'm going to need suggestions.
Thanks for the input,
Scott

The Silver Suri
Scott & Christina Campanella
1185 West Street Road
West Chester Pa 19382
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2007 :  11:26:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Scott,

Don't know about the PA breeding season, but here in VA, in a couple of weeks, it would be getting too late to breed anyway, to avoid the possibility of a cria born in the summer heat next year. Giving this girl until the Fall to mature might be your best bet all around. When you have the U/S done, you may also want to have blood drawn for a progesterone test to rule out the possibility of a retained CL.

Jane.

www.thistledownalpacas.com
Ph: (804)-784-4837 Fax: (804)-784-4839

Edited by - janechristie on 06/17/2007 11:49:03 AM
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Boyce

6 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2007 :  3:11:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Boyce's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Your male knows she is not receptive. She is either pregnant or has a retained C/L. Did your vet U/S her? A good vet can distiguish between the two on U/S.

Boyce Blanks
Mineral Springs Farm
Lexington SC
http://www.mineralspringsfarm.com
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sherih

399 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2007 :  12:33:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit sherih's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have an older female who has given us many beautiful cria. But, two years ago I tried to breed her and she displayed the same behavior as your maiden. She would not breed for over 2 years spitting and kicking and running away violently.

Then, I removed the corn from her diet and within 2 weeks she literally asked to breed. I'm hoping she will deliver in Oct.

At a different time I tried to breed a maiden and she acted very much like your girl. This time it turned out that she was pregnant. Two males had gotten into the female's pasture and she had been impregnated at that time.

Best of luck,

Sheri

Sheri Hewitt
Woodland Meadows, LLC
Creswell, OR
541-895-0964
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DarleneG

649 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2007 :  08:14:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi everyone: I have the opposite problem that Scott and Chris have. We have a male that has a problem staying on target. He's in he's out, he's all over her(even up by her head,ok some of you,get your minds out of the gutter on this one!) After several breeding attempts, I he was in and I laid on him and latched my arms around the females belly and held him in. She immediately put her head on my as if to say thank you(she WAS a maiden) and has been rejecting all our herdsires for over 2 weeks now-Ed Geiser

Earthcare Suri Alpacas
Darlene & Ed Geiser
146 N. Honey Lake Rd.
Burlington, WI 53105
262-534-4091
earthcare@wi.rr.com
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rachshees

478 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2007 :  09:48:09 AM  Show Profile  Send rachshees an AOL message  Reply with Quote
We had boys get into our pasture (luckily they are too young hopefully). My 9 month old female cushed the next morning when we brought in a male to do a breeding. I am curious to know if I can possibly breed her when she is a year or would it be better to wait, what about ddoing it at 13-14 months? She already weighs 135lbs.

Rachel Wingert
Rainbow Mountain Alpacas
Punxsutawney PA 15767
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Heidi Christensen

4211 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2007 :  10:48:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Heidi Christensen's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey Rachel,

Some would say do it at 12 months, some would say wait until she is 13 or 14, or some would say wait until she is at least 18 months. No reason not to wait, but if she's that big at 9 months, I might try her at 12 months. I have a girl who had her first cria at the age of 23 months. I was just looking at one of my girls this morning who will be a year later this month. She's a good sized girl (her mom is over 200 lbs), but I think I am going to wait until later in the year for her.

Heidi Christensen
WingNut Farm
Graham, Wa
(253) 846-2168
http://alpacanation.com/wingnutfarm.asp
http://wingnut-alpacas.com
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rachshees

478 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2007 :  12:23:17 PM  Show Profile  Send rachshees an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Heidi

Her mother weighs in about 250 but I wasn't sure what the community thought about it.

Thanks I love input
Rachel Wingert
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