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 Marquis Equine Med as parasite killer?
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alpacathis

16 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  1:28:17 PM  Show Profile
Hi all-

I recently had a chat with our local vet about routine parasite control and her recommendations for our area. In our discussion of all the different medications used for deworming or for other parasite control she mentioned that she recently learned of a study that the equine med "Marquis" (used to treat EMP in horses)can also be used in alpacas as a parasite killer instead of medicines that may just lower the parasite loads. I haven't seen this study nor can I find anything online, but it sounds like a good line of defense if needed.

Has anyone heard of this?

Kelly

allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  1:49:29 PM  Show Profile
Hi Kelly,
Marquis (ponazuril), from what I can find, is only effective on Sarcocystis neurona.
I've never heard of sarcocystis neurona in a camelid, personally, I'll pass.

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Maņana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
http://alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!
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Judith

4103 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  4:44:57 PM  Show Profile  Send Judith a Yahoo! Message
If that's the same sarcocystis that killed my Peruvian imported suri Lubica, then yes, it can happen in alpacas. However, it should be noted that it's likely ONLY imported alpacas will be affected, because it's a parasite spread in the feces of wild dogs in South America. I don't believe it's found naturally in the US (Thank God!)

Judith Korff
LadySong Farm Alpacas, Fleece & Flowers
Randolph, NY 14772
(716) 499-0383
www.alpacanation.com/ladysong.asp
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alpacathis

16 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  4:47:59 PM  Show Profile
Hello Rick,

Thanks for the research on this particular medication. This vet was at a camelid conference last March and said it had been tested in alpacas to kill coccidia. I'm trying to find out if I can get my hands on that study and find out who conducted it.

K-

Kelly Jarvis and Tyler Jarvis
Alpaca This!
Maple Valley, WA
alpacathis@comcast.net
425-432-7227
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allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  4:56:24 PM  Show Profile
Hi Judith,
Sarcocystis aucheniae is the one you're talking about.
Kelly, you might want to find out who the host was, maybe they have notes

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Maņana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
http://alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!
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andesdandies

179 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2006 :  8:50:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit andesdandies's Homepage
Kelly,

If you're worried about coccidia, we have had excellent results very quickly from use of Albon versus Corid, and no depletion of thiamin.

Best regards,


Sue Zelazny,
Andes Dandies, LLC
Middleport, NY
http://www.andesdandies.com
Where the best way to predict the future is to 'criate' it.
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meadowsong

310 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2006 :  02:57:58 AM  Show Profile
Marquis (Ponazuril) is what is used to treat the EMac form of Coccidia. It is a monster coccidia that is unaffected by Corid or Albon.

Diane Pedrotte
Meadowsong Alpacas
Capac, MI
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alpacathis

16 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2006 :  5:06:42 PM  Show Profile
Hi all-

Thanks for all the insights...I've finally got some time to update my med list for the alpacas and have been doing research on all the different drugs used by different farms. So all this input is terrific! Parasites of any kind are a scary thing...we've been very lucky so far! (Knock on wood!) What's the difference between E. mac and other coccidia--I didn't realize there were several kinds and don't think I've ever come across "E. mac".

Kelly Jarvis and Tyler Jarvis
Alpaca This!
Maple Valley, WA
alpacathis@comcast.net
425-432-7227
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allamericanalpacas

4245 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2006 :  5:38:53 PM  Show Profile
Hi Kelly,
The type of coccidia alpacas get is eimeria. There are different strains of eimeria, stiedai, stizostedioni, punoensis, macusaniensis and a bunch of others.
E-mac is used because none of us can spell eimeria macusaniensis.
If a vet told any client that their alpaca had eimeria punoensis the owner would be certain it was fatal, so the vet will say coccidia.
Fortunately, I have no first hand experience with e-mac, but I understand it is harder to detect, and tends to be harder to treat.
My personal choice for treatment of e-mac or any other coccidia would be albon or SMZ-TMP which are sulfas (similar to an antibiotic) vs the others, that are thiaminases (destroy the thiamine AKA Vitamin B1)

Rick
--
Rick & Pati Horn
All American Alpacas
35215 Avenida Maņana
Murrieta, Ca. 92563
http://aaalpacas.com/updates.html
http://alpacanation.com/aaalpacas.asp
(951) 679-7795
Life is good!
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meadowsong

310 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2006 :  08:06:51 AM  Show Profile
Hi Rick,
Sorry but I have to disagree with you as I do have personal experience with EMac. I have a female that contracted EMac while out for breeding at another farm. She was in with a group of females at various early stages of pregnancy so the farm owner wisely contacted Dr. Toni Cotton, who specializes in camelid reproductive issues. Her reply was that Corid and Albon have variable effects on EMac and are not as consistant as Ponazuril in successfull treatment. Ponazuril is the ONLY known effective treatment for EMac. EMac can encyst in the intestinal tract and cause chronic protein loosing enteropathis, weight loss and ill thrift, usually the only signs you see. There is no egg shedding when this happens and that is one of the reasons it is hard to detect. Also, there is none of the telltele diarrhea that is seen with the other coccidias.

Beacuse the effects of Ponazuril on the developing fetus is unknown, it was recommended that this group of females be kept together until all were at least 90 days out on their pregnancies and then treat THE ENTIRE GROUP for 3 days with Ponazuril and retest in 2 weeks. All the previously positive animals were then testing negative, as they did again in another 2 weeks. The reason it seems to be 'harder to treat' as you stated, is that many falsely believe they can treat with Albon or Corid. Treatment with Ponazuril has been 100% effective in the cases I have known of personally.

In response to the initial poster on this topic, Ponazuril is an antiprotozoal, and it is expensive! It would not be appropriate for routine antiparasitic application. It would work on all the coccidias, but why go to the 'big guns' before you have to.

Usual disclaimers.........not a vet, this is just what worked in my case!

Respectfully,
Diane Pedrotte
Meadowsong Alpacas
Capac, MI
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meadowsong

310 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2006 :  08:48:03 AM  Show Profile
It seems I'll have to add an addendum to my own post. I was visiting at a neighboring farm yesterday and this conversation came up. Apparently there has been some recent testing going on as to whether an extended length of treatment with the Albon would work for EMac. I don't have first hand information about what the findings were so I'll simply say that it would be wise to contact Dr. Cotton for more information as I believe she was knowledgeable of the testing.

The previous experience I stated about my animal occurred in the early months of 2006.

Diane Pedrotte
Meadowsong Alpacas
Capac, MI
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flamenco horse

2 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  3:59:47 PM  Show Profile
Hello, I'm new to your forum which I happend to stumble upont while searching for information about eMac.

I realize this particular thread is somewhat stale, but I'm hoping some might pick up on it and could gander an answer to diagnosis of this parasite.

Since eMac is believed to only shed 30% of the time therefore rendering a fecal useless in diagnositics, does anyone know if pulling blood to run a level on eonsiniphils would be reliabe in the face having a negative fecal? I realize it would not be difinitive to eMac, per se, but it would be a strong indicator if the fecal looks reasonably clean.

This is commonly used in horses with good reliability which is why I'm curious to know if it would hold true with llamas and alpacas.

Sadly this eMac thing is becoming a very serious problem right now. :(

Thanks!
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renfarms

466 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  5:46:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit renfarms's Homepage
Hi, there.
Just to add to the conversation with our experience with E. mac -
We had a bout of it the summer before last with some of our animals. It was diagnosed at OSU through fecals and the animals involved were seen by Dr. Whitehead, and she prescribed a course of Albon. After the initial course showed only slight improvement, Dr. Whitehead recommended that we repeat the same course of treatment. This worked well, animals were re-tested and no E. mac!

We had noticed SMZ-TMP being mentioned in Dr. Evan's book and had asked Dr. Whitehead about that treatment. She told us that it was more effective in young crias than in older juveniles and adults.
FYI.

Bill

Bill and Louise Goebel
Renaissance Farms
McArthur, Ohio 45651
(740) 596-1468
renfarms@starband.net
www.alpacanation.com/renaissancefarms.asp
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alpacastarr

688 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  07:12:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit alpacastarr's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by flamenco horse

Hello, I'm new to your forum which I happend to stumble upont while searching for information about eMac.

I realize this particular thread is somewhat stale, but I'm hoping some might pick up on it and could gander an answer to diagnosis of this parasite.

Since eMac is believed to only shed 30% of the time therefore rendering a fecal useless in diagnositics, does anyone know if pulling blood to run a level on eonsiniphils would be reliabe in the face having a negative fecal? I realize it would not be difinitive to eMac, per se, but it would be a strong indicator if the fecal looks reasonably clean.

This is commonly used in horses with good reliability which is why I'm curious to know if it would hold true with llamas and alpacas.

Sadly this eMac thing is becoming a very serious problem right now. :(

Thanks!



I don't know where you are but consider having your vet contact the Univ of Tennessee vet school. they've treated quite a number of llamas with e-mac. Sounds like you could be on to something with the eosinophils.

I'm sorry to hear you're having a problem. E-mac can be a killer if untreated. Don't forget to keep them eating, if they're off feed you'll lose them to that faster than from the e-mac. Are your animals eating?

Post an update later, OK?

Starr

Starr
Venezia Dream Farm
Asheville, NC

Edited by - alpacastarr on 02/01/2007 07:15:46 AM
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flamenco horse

2 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  09:10:45 AM  Show Profile
Thank you for your input Bill & Starr. I'd be interested to hear how long you keep your animals quarantined after an outbreak of eMac. Did you keep them on concrete vs. open pasture, clean the concrete with a bleach solution or hot lime dung in the pastures?
I guess what I'm trying to determine is what has actually worked.
I've read Toni Cotton's article on the tx for eMac but it's always good to hear from folks who have actually had to deal with it and how they succeeded in putting it in check.

I've been very fortunate not to have this problem in my small herd, but it's a closed herd...no outside breedings, and no new animals. I'm asking because I know of a situation where they're struggling to get this under control and have lost animals despite their best efforts. Several animals became very thin and now they're faced with implementing to proper feeding regime to save those who have been hardest hit.

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond. Any and all information is extremely helpful.
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  11:29:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage
Hi Kelly,

I have some anecdotal evidence about the Marquis product, and would be very reluctant to use it in breeding females if there was any other effective product available. A breeder we know used this product to treat E-mac in several bred females, and experienced a significant number of birth defects in the offspring. This obviously does not constitute scientific research, but it may be advisable to use other worming medicines known to be safe in camelids before resorting to this product in pregnant or breeding females. Of course, if it is a choice between the life of the dam, or the potential health of the unborn cria, the priority would be to save the dam by whatever means possible, and I understand Marquis is effective against the parasite!

Jane.

www.thistledownalpacas.com
Ph: (804)-784-4837 Fax: (804)-784-4839

Edited by - janechristie on 02/01/2007 11:31:42 AM
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renfarms

466 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  12:59:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit renfarms's Homepage
Chris,
We have our alpacas on rotated pasture. Our animals tend to maintain 2 poop piles in each pasture and 1 near the barn. We rotate pastures each month after worming. During the time of our outbreak, only a few of our juveniles were involved (not all of our juveniles at the time) and none of our adults. The younger animals are more susceptible to coccidia as their immune systems are not as "robust" yet. As alluded to in our earlier posting we treated with Albon. We also administered Pepto-Bismol and gave them oral electrolyte paste to help control their diarrhea and help prevent dehydration. The dehydration caused by the diarrhea is a big part of the effects of coccidia, and the most immediate factor threatening them at it's onset. We also removed poop at least twice a day to remove shed eggs and help prevent it from spreading. If physically possible with your facilities, I would recommend quarantining the affected animals, as well as their mom's if they are not yet weaned. With a small herd kept together, however, bear in mind that, by the time your animals are symptomatic, the likelihood is that they have all been exposed, and the ones not symptomatic probably have an immune system strong enough to ward off the effects. Like many other parasites, Coccidia are something that are generally omnipresent on many alpaca farms. Usually 2 things keep the animals from becoming symptomatic - strength of their immune system, and the numbers of the coccidia parasite present in them.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Bill and Louise Goebel
Renaissance Farms
McArthur, Ohio 45651
(740) 596-1468
renfarms@starband.net
www.alpacanation.com/renaissancefarms.asp
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alpacastarr

688 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  2:03:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit alpacastarr's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by flamenco horse

Thank you for your input Bill & Starr. I'd be interested to hear how long you keep your animals quarantined after an outbreak of eMac. Did you keep them on concrete vs. open pasture, clean the concrete with a bleach solution or hot lime dung in the pastures?
I guess what I'm trying to determine is what has actually worked.
I've read Toni Cotton's article on the tx for eMac but it's always good to hear from folks who have actually had to deal with it and how they succeeded in putting it in check.

I've been very fortunate not to have this problem in my small herd, but it's a closed herd...no outside breedings, and no new animals. I'm asking because I know of a situation where they're struggling to get this under control and have lost animals despite their best efforts. Several animals became very thin and now they're faced with implementing to proper feeding regime to save those who have been hardest hit.

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond. Any and all information is extremely helpful.



Reply to me by email with your real name so I know who I'm talking to and I will give you the contact information for the place who had this problem. They run a rescue operation, they probably brought E-mac in with debilitated animals and it really swept through them resulting in several tragic losses... and permanent changes in how they're managing their herd health and population density.

I'm sure they will be glad to explain all that they did to beat this back. Yes, sterilizing the premises was part of it. I believe they used bleach. Yes, tube or paste feeding sick animals was required. Maintaining nutrition is key to surviving long enough to beat the e-mac. They worked their tails off but they sure saved a lot of very sick llamas.

But, this is their story, not mine and I really don't have the details you're probably looking for. Knock on wood, I followed good biohazard protocols and didn't drag it onto my farm with dirty boots. Contact me or have your friends' vet contact U of Tenn vet school. They have experience with treating this.



Starr
Venezia Dream Farm
Asheville, NC
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meadowsong

310 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2007 :  2:06:08 PM  Show Profile
Jane,
I would be interested in knowing at what point in gestation were the females given the Ponazuril that had the crias with the birth defects. In my case (stated previously in this thread) it was recommended by Dr. Cotton that we waited until all the females in the group were at least 90 days out in their pregnancy before we treated (unless there were obvious signs of illness or distress). My female was at another farm for breeding so I don't know all of the animals she was with, but of the ones I do know of, including mine, none had crias with birth defects. At the time we had contacted Dr. Cotton she had mentioned that there were a number of farms she was aware of that had used the Ponazuril to treat females at different stages of pregnancy, but at that point none of the crias had been born yet. I would be interested in knowing the outcomes of the pregnancies as related to the period of gestation at the time of treatment with the Ponazuril if you can share that information.

On the Holistic Alpaca group there has been a conversation recently about Paravac. It is an herbal wormer that is supposed to be effective against EMac. It was tested by Dr. Anderson and proven to be effective and safe at all stages of pregnancy. I have never used this prodct personally, but would probably go this route first if I had to treat for EMac again.

Diane Pedrotte
Meadowsong Alpacas
Capac, MI
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janechristie

1475 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2007 :  1:47:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit janechristie's Homepage
A brief update re Marquis in pregnant femals. The breeder I mentioned is on their way out of town, so didn't have time to check health records on females treated 3 years ago. However, to the best of their recollection, the females were treated in the first 3 months of pregnancy, and neither maternal or paternal line had thrown any offspring with facial deformities. Apparently this breeder is also aware of other farms that have had the same experience, and has now decided to follow the OSU Albon protocol (which they believe to be less effective) in pregnant females, and would only use Marquis on open females or males.

If Dr. Toni Cotton is aware of other farms which used the product on females in their first 90 days of pregnancy, it might be interesting to know those results. All we have is anecdotal evidence, but in the absence of clear scientific research, it might be wise to err on the side of caution!

Jane.

Edited by - janechristie on 02/07/2007 2:44:52 PM
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